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Poll
Ball & Chain!
Yes!
40%
 40%  [ 4 ]
No!
20%
 20%  [ 2 ]
Maybe!
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
I don't know!
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Can you repeat the question?
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
You're not the boss of me now
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
You're not the boss of me now
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
You're not the boss of me now, and you're not so big
20%
 20%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 10


onthejazz



Joined: Feb 24, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2012 - 15:24 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm gonna cover this team idea based on the F.U.N. criteria. I personally very much agree with those who rank F (fluff) as the least important aspect compared to the others two (Uniqueness and Novelty)

F! (Fluff)

Night Goblins are pretty well covered in Warhammer fluff and the focus on this team lies on the night goblins use of the madcap mushrooms which gives their shamans and warriors extra power with the slight downside of turning their brains into soup. I think, and I feel that the proposed playstyle is different enough from the established stunty teams to warrant being unique, even if "another goblin team" isn't very unique fluff wise.

U! (Uniqueness)

The team playstyle centers heavily around the Ball & Chain skills, with a couple of variants. There is a team that relies heavily on Bombs (Flamers) and Chainsaws (carvers), but what about those of us who thinks that the Ball & Chain is the funniest? Snotlings are listed as covering B&C, but I really think that it could go a lot further. This team is intended to be to B&C what Flamers is to Bombardier. The Night Goblins have 4 types of positionals, 3 of which have the Ball & Chain skill!

N! (Novel Playing Style)

First off, is there a single stunty leeg player who hasn't at one point thought that it'd be really cool if you could TTM a Ball & Chain player? Why wouldn't you want to do this? A do-or-die strategy fitting of any stunty leeg coach.

Besides the unique TTM option, and the heavy reliance on B&C players with relatively high movement scores and low strength scores would make for a pretty novel and unique playing style, I'd think. Hugely luck reliant, proper stunty style, with the coach having to think of a new plan on how to protect the ball and the Ball & Chain players after they've scattered in every which direction.

The players!

0-2 Fanatics MA 3 ST 7 AG 1 AV 7 – S/GAP – Ball & Chain, No Hands, Secret Weapon, Stunty, Might Blow – S- GAP - 80.000 Gold.

Fluff: The fanatic is the run-of-the-mill fanatic that we know from the Goblin team. It fits both with the lore and the team play style to have these guys in lieu of Big Guys, I think. They eat madcap mushrooms, most likely by being force fed them, and then they lug a big ball of steel around.

Balance: Strength 7, Mighty Blow and the possibility of knocking down multiple players in one turn is very, very nice and the best part, it doesn’t even use your blitz action! However, you can’t actually target anyone, with only a 1/3 chance of moving into your intended target square, they have Secret Weapon which means that they’re only around for 1 drive, and with AV 7 and the Ball & Chain rule on knockdowns, B&C players are very, very susceptible to be taken out by stabs, chainsaws, bombs, or even opposing Big Guys with an assists or two and I think that this justified the relative cheap cost to other Big Guys, even with the high Strength score.

0-4 Madcap Berserkers MA 5 ST 2 AG 3 AV 7 – Ball & Chain, No Hands, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Stunty, Right Stuff – S – GAP - 80.000 Gold.

Fluff: Big metal weapons does not grow on trees or up from the ground. Madcap mushrooms do, however, they grow everywhere. Sometimes they even grow on the goblins themselves so unlike metal weapons, mad cap mushrooms are in no short supply. The madcap berserker are unarmed Night Goblins which are being force fed mad cap mushrooms before Blood Bowl matches.

Balance: These guys are both the heart of the team and the hardest to balance, I think. I considered a ST 3 variant, but felt that it was too powerful and that the movement would have had to be reduced to a point where the uniqueness of the team would be much lesser. These guys having ST2 also means that an assists will be needed against a lot of Stunty players, which means a huge gamble on the Night Goblin coach's part as he will have to commit Night Goblins to giving those assists without any guarantee that the Berserkers will make a block, much less a knockdown.

Since B&C has the potential to cause several knockdowns without using your blitz action, it is very powerful in an environment like Stunty Leeg where knockdowns often result in armour breaks and injury rolls with a +1 or +2 modifier and where you're probably hoping to reduce knockdowns against you significantly by dodging back a square.

The relative low strength score of the Berserkers means that they can be taken out fairly easily, though, and their low AV makes them very vulnerable to a lot of secret weapons, plus B&C players automatically being KO’d (or worse) by any knockdown means that the Night Goblin coach needs to protect them well, and with random movement, strength 2 and AV 7, that is going to be pretty difficult. A berserker ending its turn next to any player, even a Strength 1 player, could end with the berserker in the KO box real fast.

I considered making Berserkers 0-6 because I see them being taken out very easily, but that is simply too many potential knockdowns, so instead I decided to give the berserkers Thick Skull, which means that the Night Goblins will run out of Berserkers at a slower rate, without being able to field too many at any one time.

0-2 Madcap Addicts MA 6 ST 1 AG 4 AV 9 Ball & Chain, No Hands, Dauntless, Dodge, Thick Skull, Right Stuff – A – SGP - 60.000 Gold.

Fluff: Madcap Addicts are former berserkers who have somehow managed to not die and who have now become addicted after having been force fed madcap mushrooms in their former berserker careers, which have been know to last up towards several weeks in extreme cases. The addicts have had their minds and bodies destroyed and are now eating the madcap mushrooms that are rotten and discarded, considered to dangerous to even feed to berserkers. The low Strength score is representative of the Madcap Addicts having had their bodies deteriorate while the high Agility, Move and Dauntless represents the Madcap Addict's being under extreme madcap. The High AV represents the increased pain threshold built up by the addicts who are constantly taking severe beatings and are drugged out of their minds.

Balance: Relying on Dauntless, these guys are even more luck reliant to use than any other Ball & Chain player, but they also have the potential to knock everything down, which will probably be sorely needed after the two “real” fanatics have been banned. The other role of these guys is to be TTM’d to somewhere with a big blob of players and possibly mowing them all down with their high MA. Much more likely, however, in between any part of the TTM failing, Dauntless failing, not moving to the intended squares and blocking failing, the likely result is for these guys to either hurt themselves or leave their assisting teammates hanging.

I considered giving these guys Block in order to encourage 1-dice blocking with them in, but although I think that this would actually be balanced for the most part, then against the stunty teams with many Strength 1 players, it would be very nasty. Instead I decided to give them a high AV in order to make them less susceptible to secret weapons and Thick Skull in order for the Night Goblin coach to have to expend less effort into protecting these players, as they are meant as kamikaze style attackers. I'd like to give them Block in order to encourage 1-dice blocking, so if anyone has any thought on the balance on how to make that a possibility, speak up.

0-2 Shamans MA 6 ST 2 AG 3 AV 7 – Stunty, Dodge, Right Stuff, Throw Team Mate, Bone Head, Always Hungry, Leader – SAMP - G

Background: other than B&C guys, the defining part about Night Goblins in Warhammer is their shamans who eat madcap mushrooms in order to cast more powerful spells. Shamans used to have access to magic which could transports whole units of greenskins, wich is the rationale behind shamans having the Throw Team Mate skill. Always Hungry and Bone Head is an attempt to represent how the use of madcap mushroom fueled magic had risk of screwing everything up for everyone involved.

I decided that Night Goblins Shamans being able to cast magic on themselves and gain powers from that as well as eating madcap mushrooms (and the occasional piece of Warpstone too, if I remember) would allow for a player with really great skill access, making the Shamans into potential ball-carriers, killers, or whatever else. The skill access is great, but inbetween the decent but unimpressive base stats, I feel that they aren’t overpowered.

Both for fluff and balance reasons, though, I considered whether P and G access should be doubles only or regulars. Fluff wise it makes sense, I think, because A, S & M are largely physical attributes which I think it makes sense to have altered by madcap mushrooms, magic and the occasional warpstone dust sniffing, where P and G are more based on learned and practised skills than raw physical prowess.

I ended up deciding against G-access as it is very powerful in stunty and because the intent of the Shamans is to a large extent to skill them into competent TTM players, because whether you're playing with or against a night Goblin team, isn't what you really want to do, or have you opponent do, is to TTM B&C players? I think it is.


0-16 Night goblins MA 6 ST 2 AG 3 AV 7 – Stunty, Dodge, Right Stuff – A – GSP – 40.000 Gold.

Background & balance: They're Night Goblins!
Rooster

Overview


0-2 Fanatics 3/7/1/7, Ball & Chain, Secret Weapon, No Hands, Mighty Blow, S/GAP 80K.

0-4 Madcap Berserkers 5/2/3/7, Ball & Chain, No Hands, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Thick Skull, S/GAP 80K.

0-2 Madcap Addicts 6/1/4/9, Ball & Chain, No Hands, Dauntless, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Thick skull AS/GP 80K.

0-2 Shamans 6/2/3/7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Leader, Throw Team Mate, Bone Head, Always Hungry ASMP/G 80K

0-16 Night Goblins 6/2/3/7, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, A/SGP 40K

RR: 50K
Apo: yes
Ehlers



Joined: Jun 26, 2006

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2012 - 15:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Already exit a fanatic type of stunty player.
And it is still a goblin who pull the B&C around, so still should have ag3 instead of ag1 if allowed to have str7.

Fun concept with B&C moving like players though Smile
Shraaaag



Joined: Feb 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2012 - 15:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Allthough I applaud the idea of a night goblin team. I doubt the usefullness of str 1 and 2 ball and chain players. Your turn could be over before it starts. It's really hard to assist players with random movement (ball and chain), and dauntless isn't as good as it used to be (I am told).

I would also be careful giving Shamans Strength access. Sure they are strong enough to toss other goblins, but chances is mighty blow and piling on will most likely be the prime choices.

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WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2012 - 16:42
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

We have three Stunty Goblin teams already, do we really need another?

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2012 - 16:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I have no problem with shaman skill access; they have no particular other redeeming features, so it's kind of like a stunty chaos marauder, and they have bone-head to make up for it AND you can only get 2 of them. Even if all they do is MB/PO/Claw, they are no mechavermin. They should be fine.

S1/S2 B&C players - sounds awesome!

However, (once it's actually implemented), I think a turn will go something like this:

Fanatics (if on the pitch): Smash forward, possibly hurting stuff.

Shamans and goblins maneuvre, possibly making a few blocks or a blitz.

Beserkers and Addicts: Basically a super frenzy player. Go watch a newbie norse team for how often multiple frenzy players become a hindrance instead of a boon. Every single block must be predicted, because it's soooo easy for that second block to be -2d - and with these B&C players they might miss the first block anyway!

So now these players get moved, not to BLOCK people, even though that might happen, but to attempt to scare the opposition for the next turns positioning. And 6 players that are only for scaring people won't ever be used, so most teams will only have 2 or 3 of them, thus defeating the entire purpose of the team.


Final:
Lose mighty blow on fanatics - just increases SPP gain, no other B&C has that to start, and you only need it if you admit the other 6 B&C players aren't worth the text time you spent on them.
Increase the small B&C players Str by 1 each - since they still don't have G access, they're still going to fail blocks left right and center, but now at least they are on par with someone if they muck up and get that second or third block against someone who has an assist. They might be used. Addicts probably won't ever be used, for anything, due to second/third block failure.
PsyPhiGrad



Joined: Dec 22, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2012 - 17:09 Reply with quote Back to top

WhatBall wrote:
We have three Stunty Goblin teams already, do we really need another?


I'd suggest you look at the Chaos Dwarf Daemondroid team:
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=12534&start=30 and contribute to that thread. Can you think of a way to justify the Stompers being thrown? I think it would be cool for the giant legged contraptions being able to taking giant leaps (kind of like the old Pogo that was on the original roster). Adding Right Stuff to the Stompers might be a nifty change.
onthejazz



Joined: Feb 24, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 12, 2012 - 00:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Ehlers wrote:
Already exit a fanatic type of stunty player.
And it is still a goblin who pull the B&C around, so still should have ag3 instead of ag1 if allowed to have str7.

Fun concept with B&C moving like players though Smile


Ah, yes. AG 3 since it is a Goblin, you are right Smile I know there is already a Fanatic type in stunty, but I think it could be fun with a team where many players are affected by the B&C movement.

Shraaaag wrote:
Allthough I applaud the idea of a night goblin team. I doubt the usefullness of str 1 and 2 ball and chain players. Your turn could be over before it starts. It's really hard to assist players with random movement (ball and chain), and dauntless isn't as good as it used to be (I am told).


Maybe I was too careful in not wanting the B&C players to be too strong. B&C is on one hand very nice for an environment like stunty leeg because it gives the possibility of making several blocks against players not in your immediate tacklezones without using your blitz action. On the other hand, they are very unreliable.

Maybe I have overestimated how useful the B&C movement and block rules are when compared to how unreliable they are also. I think that the trouble I am having is also, if their Strength is raised, then their movement should be lowered also, but the ratio of Strength versus Movement is tricky on B&C players, I think, as Movement is more valuable on a B&C player than on many others because it also gives you extra blocking attempts. I could have overestimated the use of MA because I have underestimated how unreliable B&C movement is, though.

If you raised the Strength, what would you do with Movement?


Quote:
I would also be careful giving Shamans Strength access. Sure they are strong enough to toss other goblins, but chances is mighty blow and piling on will most likely be the prime choices.


I think you are right. Since all other positionals are B&C players, then they do not use the blitz action and so shamans becomes a good player to skill into a blitzer. Perhaps in order to compliment their intended role as TTM, and to encourage using TTM on B&C players, the Shaman could lose S access but start with Strong Arm. If the B&C players were to have a slight Strength buff and Movement decrease, it would also encourage using TTM more, I think.

WhatBall wrote:
We have three Stunty Goblin teams already, do we really need another?


Fluff is the harder to argue for and against than balance and such, I think. When it comes to fluff, I prefer teams that uses thing in exsisting Warhammer fluff rather than races that have not been heard of before. I can understand if some thinks that is boring, but I would rather see, say clan Eshin, Skyre and Pestilence and Forest and Night Goblins that I would like to see 1 goblin-based team and 1 skaven-based team and 3 new races that has the playstyle and mechanics that could fit for established clans or groupings.

Just a preference, of course, and I think it is great that people take time to think of very unique teams, but I like such variants as Forest Goblins and the Skaven clans and Chaos Gods.

Nelphine wrote:
I have no problem with shaman skill access; they have no particular other redeeming features, so it's kind of like a stunty chaos marauder, and they have bone-head to make up for it AND you can only get 2 of them. Even if all they do is MB/PO/Claw, they are no mechavermin. They should be fine.


I also do not think that they are overpowered, but the role I would really like for Shamans is to use TTM and if the Shamans can be made into effective blitzers then they will probably be blitzing rather than using the pass action for TTM. In reponse to Shraaaag I mention that perhaps removing S access, but giving them Strong Arm would help a lot with the Shaman role. I think it would fit nicely fluff wise because of some old WAAAGH magics where a big hand of one of the greenskin gods came down and carried a unit or character somewhere else Razz

Quote:
S1/S2 B&C players - sounds awesome!

However, (once it's actually implemented), I think a turn will go something like this:

Fanatics (if on the pitch): Smash forward, possibly hurting stuff.

Shamans and goblins maneuvre, possibly making a few blocks or a blitz.

Beserkers and Addicts: Basically a super frenzy player. Go watch a newbie norse team for how often multiple frenzy players become a hindrance instead of a boon. Every single block must be predicted, because it's soooo easy for that second block to be -2d - and with these B&C players they might miss the first block anyway!

So now these players get moved, not to BLOCK people, even though that might happen, but to attempt to scare the opposition for the next turns positioning. And 6 players that are only for scaring people won't ever be used, so most teams will only have 2 or 3 of them, thus defeating the entire purpose of the team.

Final:
Lose mighty blow on fanatics - just increases SPP gain, no other B&C has that to start, and you only need it if you admit the other 6 B&C players aren't worth the text time you spent on them.
Increase the small B&C players Str by 1 each - since they still don't have G access, they're still going to fail blocks left right and center, but now at least they are on par with someone if they muck up and get that second or third block against someone who has an assist. They might be used. Addicts probably won't ever be used, for anything, due to second/third block failure.


I think you are right. When I thought about balance for the Strength 1 and 2 B&C players I decided it was better to be underpowered than overpowered when making a team suggestion, and perhaps I have overestimated the useful side to the B&C movement rules compared to the downsides on top of not wanting to create an overpowered team also.

Although I thought it might be too effective first, based especially on yours and Shraaaag's comment, perhaps making both Berserkers and Addicts 0-3 and giving them a single Strength point boost and Movement Penalty, either by just giving them 1 point less movement or by replacing a piece of Move with the Sure Feet and/or Sprint skills could help
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