| Poll |
| Why the Hate? |
| +40 TV is huge man |
|
18% |
[ 28 ] |
| -1 AV, Cant have that, no way, no how. |
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22% |
[ 34 ] |
| I just dont like the gimmick of stab, I cant use my custom block dice |
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12% |
[ 19 ] |
| No hate here, all love |
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28% |
[ 42 ] |
| Does a dagger purchase come with a free pie? |
|
18% |
[ 27 ] |
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| Total Votes : 150 |
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MPC
Joined: Aug 16, 2005
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 Posted:
Apr 28, 2012 - 18:33 |
 
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I don't have one yet, but i'm an 8 av freak, hate the runner and not always have a WE except at higher TVs when i always will have 1/2
But the assassin sounds pretty strong on a well built team:
get one that's incredibly sturdy, go blodge ss fend mblock jump up and watch the clawpombers without tackle dodge away...shadow! shank!
ignore the fact that he may die: leap, now you can threaten the cage with only 1 man, even on a 9 AV ball carrier (and there are not that many) you get a 16% chance of bringing the ball down in the middle of his team, 28% on AV 8, pretty good.
The only bad thing about this dude is 20k more for 1 less av on what appears to be death sentence roles on the team but hey, just the fact that you have a leap stabber on the team may give your oppo some headaches, with the frenzies you get (possible with leap too) and his positioning is conditioned to defending v your potential rolls, meanwhile the rest of the team does the rest of the magic
So, lets recap: with a legendary multiblocker you can cause severe pain to many many teams
1 skill: total metagaming sweetness with leap as you threaten the ball at all times without such a big chance of turnover (3+ on leap), he'll die but what is a 110k TV player in Darkies, really? |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 28, 2012 - 18:35 |
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I love stab.
yes, it tends to bring in more 7av on the team turning them into wimpy pro elves, but I just don't buy runners instead.
the assassin is completely unafraid of high strength or guard or blodge or suffering a turnover or anything...
they are the honey badgers of bloodbowl |
_________________
Hail to Buccaneer Buster! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by the Angry Newscasters in their 1000th game! |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 28, 2012 - 19:12 |
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Honey badger? Sounds like filthy Beedog propaganda! |
_________________
Don't say no to yellow snow... It could be beer! |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 28, 2012 - 19:13 |
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dark elf assassin doesn't care! |
_________________
Hail to Buccaneer Buster! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by the Angry Newscasters in their 1000th game! |
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MisterFurious
Joined: Aug 11, 2010
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| Posted:
Apr 28, 2012 - 19:25 |
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Ugh, you are obviously one of those people that just can not be argued with. You have made up your mind and no matter what anyone says, you think you are right and everyone else is wrong no matter what statistics or evidence is thrown at you. You keep thinking of these best case scenarios were assassins leap into cages and shank ball carriers or take out an entire LOS with multistab, but the reality is that those instances are rare. Most of the time, assassins just whiff and do nothing. Sure, every great once in a while you will see an assassin go on a tear and shank a team to pieces, but that is not the norm. They are like goblin bombers. Almost every new player sees bombers on the Goblin roster and has visions of blowing up cages with bombs, but then you play Goblins and all the bomber does is blow himself up. Assassins are the same. People fantasize about Assassins stabbing everyone in sight, but it hardly ever works out that way.
Stab is not as good as blocking unless your opponent has a team with below AV 7. Why? Because, as many others have said, when you fail a stab nothing happens and your assassin is left standing next to an upright enemy player. That is really bad. The majority of blocks result in a Push. Most of the time, a Push seems bad because you were hoping for a star followed by a nice, juicy injury so when you see that arrow, you get deflated but, really, a Push is not a bad thing. You get to choose where you want to push the guy so you can push him to the spot that is most advantageous for you. You also get to choose if you want to follow up or not. These choices make blocking better than stabbing because with stab there is no choice. It is Do or Die. You break armor and all is great or you dont break armor and your AV 7 guy is getting hit next turn. Considering how low the odds are of breaking AV with stab, that is not a good scenario. Stab just is not that good of a skill in normal Blood Bowl. In Stunty Leeg, it is quite nice due to the lower average AV, but normally, it just is not that effective. Add to that the ineffectiveness of Shadowing on a MV 6 guy and 7 AV and you get a player that really does not do that much except break your heart. Oh, and there is also the problem that even if you do manage to shank someone and get a CAS, your assassin does not even get any SPPs for it. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
Location: in a treee
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| Posted:
Apr 28, 2012 - 19:44 |
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Honeybeedog Badgers FTW |
_________________
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 28, 2012 - 19:55 |
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stab is nice, but as said shadowing on ma6 av7 is hardly worth half a skill. guys with lower movement beat the CRP out of you, guys with higher ma just run away. i would actually run one of them but maybe as play nr 14 (and my darkies do not usually have 14 players...), because vs zons, rats and woodies they are actually nice |
_________________
"Gott ist nicht mit uns. Er hasst Idioten wie Dich." |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Location: Dallas, TEXAS
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| Posted:
Apr 28, 2012 - 20:13 |
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| MisterFurious wrote: | | Ugh, you are obviously one of those people that just can not be argued with. You have made up your mind and no matter what anyone says, you think you are right and everyone else is wrong no matter what statistics or evidence is thrown at you. |
I dont think this was directed at me, but oh well.
Maybe it was.
I would like to point out that no statistics have been thrown out to show that Block is better than stab. In fact the opposite happened.
The evidence presented by others is personeal experience playing this game and heavily influnecd on how each coach "views" the game or personal prefrence of how to play. There has been no evidence (litteral meaning of the word) that has shown a lino is better than a assassin.
The main thrust of coaches who do not like assassins all fall in the weaknesses of assassins in the situational part of the game.
So lets have fun with that.
Azure pointed out that the main weakness of the assassin is that his stab is a all or nothing attack. Leaving him set up for blocks back at him if he fails. Specifically blocks, not blitzes, which is huge. I agree 100% with Azure.
BUT
Lets assume our assassin coach is not a drone. He actually thinks. He takes dodge on his assassin. So now the assassin targets rookies. They dont have block. Because your assassin has dodge he has blodge by default on the block back at him, IF the stab should fail, inless your opponeet does not mind both down for turnover. He can also target guys with block for normal odds on the block back.
The point being. There are a lot of situations when having your stab fail does not mean he gets blocked back, blown up for armor break, you hear snap crackle pop and a tombstone appears.
So if you are targeting your assassins against CW with B/T/PO/MB, maybe that is the downfall of the assassin plan instead of targeting the support no block beastmen instead.
The problem with this discussion is that the OP made a simple, in the void argument, that stab was better than block.
As with all things BB any tactic gets hung up on the situational side of the game. Which BTW is heavily influenced on your approach to proper BB.
You cant argue that stab is worse than block. Because the black/white nature of the %.
We can keep this going for 20 pages on a back and forth debate on situations when the postional know as the assassin is weaker than a regular lino. But then we are not debating stab per se but the role of the assassin VS the lino.
Let me restate what my point of the OP was.
I did not understand why you would not buy a assassin for +20TV when you get free blocks, which are better than a normal block and gain shadowing. At the cost of -1AV. It was implied I was fine with the -1AV and that rolling straight up armor checks is better because that is the purpose of blocking in the first place.
I think this is a good thread because the coaches have pointed out why the assassin is weaker than a lino, and state why. Well they have valid points. Which in turn makes you a better coach IF you decide to use assassins. Now that you have knowledge you can apply that to the pitch and use your assassins more effectivly. Which in turns make the assassin more effective when he is stabing and good odds of not getting knocked down if he should fail on the return block from your victim.
So based on the thread up to this point.
The ideal Assassin is:
Blodge
SideStep
He targets rookies or guys with out tackle.
Get multiblock and allways stand next to two guys who dont have tackle.
This ideal assassin would be great on the backside of your opponeets main thrust. Tieing down support players and maybe shadowing guys who are dodging away to provide assists on other blocks.
Standing him in front of the cage, going hero mode, is probally the worst case scenario for your assassin. |
_________________
GLT is kicking off!!!
WoC is in main draw...BLOOD!!!
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Woodstock
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Location: Netherlands
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Assassins are useless, just like the LRB4 star that was never used. There was no single reason to add them to the roster.
A DE team can perform excellent with only blitzers and lino's, adding witches is OK. Runners is already questionable. But adding more av7 is just pure crap. |
_________________
FUMBBL Administrator |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Location: Dallas, TEXAS
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| Posted:
Apr 28, 2012 - 20:51 |
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| Woodstock wrote: | Assassins are useless, just like the LRB4 star that was never used. There was no single reason to add them to the roster.
A DE team can perform excellent with only blitzers and lino's, adding witches is OK. Runners is already questionable. But adding more av7 is just pure crap. |
This is valid reason not to take assassins.
I can think of one reason to add assassin to the roster. They are cool for fluff. But that is not a game mechanic.
The concern is the game mechanic side, AV7.
You now have 6 players with AV7. That his a high % of squish factor now on the DE lineup. That is a concern.
You could make a good case that if you have to play with a large % of AV7 then go play Wood Elf and atleast get the upside of movement and one of the top 3 best postionals in the game, the wardancer.
So woodstock disagrees with my OP. Cool, I disagree with his view on assassins. So lets go play some BB and I will bring the 12 pack of beer. |
_________________
GLT is kicking off!!!
WoC is in main draw...BLOOD!!!
Specs are loving it right now. |
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Woodstock
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Location: Netherlands
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Assassins are crap for more reason, but you ignore those without a doubt. Reasons:
Stab is useless
Shadowing is useless
Done. Just like amazon catchers and throwers, orc throwers, human ogres, chaos pact big guys, slanns krox and slanns blitzers to some sort of degree, and many more. All crap, but added for fluff or some other weird reason. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 29, 2012 - 00:17 |
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Once again, woodstock is wrong  |
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Overhamsteren
Joined: May 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 29, 2012 - 00:23 |
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Anyway why are you not playing with the greatest team ever, and will they ever have an assassin? |
_________________
Like a Tiger Defying the Laws of Gravity |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Location: Dallas, TEXAS
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| Posted:
Apr 29, 2012 - 01:06 |
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| Overhamsteren wrote: | | Anyway why are you not playing with the greatest team ever, and will they ever have an assassin? |
Well lets put it this way..Yes the Greatest is going to have 2 assassins.
I would also like to get in 5-10 games a week with my main team the Buccaneers. Work on my DE team, keep my slann team going with some ideas I got perkulating. Then get in my L games in the 3 leagues that I play in. Finish my sprint in Box for human league and maximize my score, so about 25 games a week.
So that is what I want to happen.
This is what happens.
reality sets in with my family, twin boys age 5, baseball, piano, wife again, work, go to bed because Iam exhausted.
I get in 4 games a week.
you do the math.
BTW: I do love every minute of it and would not trade it for anything. Positive thinking..Once I hit age 50 the kids will be moving on and I will have so much free time I could get in 50 matches a week. |
_________________
GLT is kicking off!!!
WoC is in main draw...BLOOD!!!
Specs are loving it right now.
Last edited by PainState on Apr 29, 2012 - 01:12; edited 2 times in total |
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Overhamsteren
Joined: May 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 29, 2012 - 01:11 |
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At least you have ambitions  |
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Like a Tiger Defying the Laws of Gravity |
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