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Poll
Which should be the 3rd skill?
Guard
5%
 5%  [ 4 ]
Tackle
54%
 54%  [ 38 ]
Dodge
8%
 8%  [ 6 ]
Something Else
31%
 31%  [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 70


Chainsaw



Joined: Aug 31, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 16, 2014 - 18:23 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
No, I was pointing out how moronic your insult was.

The irony... you've not produced a single point beyond "Goo said it" as to why you think it sucks. You just do.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 16, 2014 - 18:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
yes it would in theory, but Wrestle and strip ball just work sooooo much better together that it makes that use somewhat pointless.


Thats true isnt it. in a hypothetical war dancer or amazon blitzer build, wrestle seems like a superfluous choice tv wise. I dont have a strong opinion one way or another but would you recommend wrestle in natural blodgers or blodge access starting w/block
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 16, 2014 - 18:36 Reply with quote Back to top

come on now chaps, this is all very childish. There are opinions to be had in this game.

However if you are a rookie player and looking for advice. Tackle is the way to go here. Juggernaut is a good skill, but it is not something you should take before tackle on players that get access to both, let alone on players that need a double.

The reason for this is - Tackle negates Dodge when blocking, Dodge is a skill that is very common and helps your opponent maintain some mobility. Wrestle while a good skill is not a skill that you will find on ball carriers or bash teams on the whole. While Blodge appear on everyone. Tackle also negates dodge when dodging away from you. This is a huge positional advantage to have and makes it much more useful than Juggernaut.

Yes Juggernaut cancels Fend but who takes Fend anyway? especially at low to mid TV. I only ever see it on a couple of players at High TV and even then Im not convinced they picked sensibly. Yes it cancels stand firm, same again, you don't see it early on in teams development. It cancels wrestle, yeah this is cool and its most useful rule for non big guys. However a good player will just stick a block player in front of your Juggernaut blitzer anyway so they cant go hunting all your wrestle players. Also Wrestle is really only a skill you see on finesse teams on the whole. So you are taking a skill that is largely wasted against bash teams of which there are a lot in this game.

Juggernaut is good for surfing, turning the both down in to push backs, well yeah it helps increase the odds but again if you are playing anyone good you should very very rarely get the chance to surf players anyway, it is very easy to avoid.

Juggernauts use on the whole is extremely situational. Tackle on the other hand is used against all teams, even CPOMB teams have a couple of blodgers knocking about.

In short Tackle IS a priority team development. Juggernaut is not a priority, but it is useful. On bash players they dont have to be mutually exclusive, take both skills, but Tackle is always the one you should take first in a team.

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Last edited by Garion on Apr 16, 2014 - 18:50; edited 2 times in total
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 16, 2014 - 18:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Zip 'em up, boys.

I think that basically what it boils down to is, there's a large group of skills in all categories that you want to put on your POMBer, but the only two that scream "Me! Me!" are Tackle and Claw, the latter of which you can't ever have. Some of these skills are doubles skills for just about any player, and if you really like one of those doubles skills it's worth taking when you get a double even if you haven't finished putting together your whole T-POMB combo. But if you don't love that kind of skill, don't bother. So, really, it's a matter of playing to your style.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 16, 2014 - 18:38 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Garion wrote:
yes it would in theory, but Wrestle and strip ball just work sooooo much better together that it makes that use somewhat pointless.


Thats true isnt it. in a hypothetical war dancer or amazon blitzer build, wrestle seems like a superfluous choice tv wise. I dont have a strong opinion one way or another but would you recommend wrestle in natural blodgers or blodge access starting w/block


If you are talking about zons specifically. I would make all positionals blodge and linewomen wrodge. So 4 blitzers start blodged, 2 catchers and a thrower give blodge, so thats 7, leaving you 4 linewomen with wrestle on the pitch.

oh and wardancers yeah I would give them wrestle, or at least one of them, as they are so good at stripping the ball. zon blitzers, no i never would.

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JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 16, 2014 - 18:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I wanted to feed the troll but I guess I don't need to.

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Rat_Salat



Joined: Apr 22, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 17, 2014 - 00:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Chainsaw wrote:
Because one of us is a braindead clawpomb addict who likes to just click kill with nurgle/chaos/cd.


I'm not sure this is fair to Jimmy, but it was pretty funny.
Chainsaw



Joined: Aug 31, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 17, 2014 - 00:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
In short Tackle IS a priority team development. Juggernaut is not a priority, but it is useful. On bash players they dont have to be mutually exclusive, take both skills, but Tackle is always the one you should take first in a team.


Again, he's like 3 games away from tackle. You're comparing juggernaut to the wrong skill.

It's either juggernaut this skill then tackle, or tackle then dodge. So it's juggernaut vs dodge.

I'm just not getting the way you guys think.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 17, 2014 - 01:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Superstar Blitzers with pomb don't need dodge, they need a magic potion in their pocket.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 17, 2014 - 01:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I like Pro as a late skill on TPOMBers, after Jump Up. Effectively adds 20% to your pow odds vs skilled, or put another way reduces your block fails by 25%. Vs. rookie, that's 1/12 (3/4 x 2/9 x 1/2 = 1/12) of all results, or 1/3 of all fails. That's weaker than Frenzy, but it comes with no downside. But that's me and I rate Jump Up. Means opponents often can't pow and follow blindly, and then when they don't the guy's free to move a lot farther.

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Chainsaw



Joined: Aug 31, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 17, 2014 - 02:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Well since juggernaut would be his 3rd skill, 4th tackle and 5th jump up..... that's the path I would take with pro at legend, however I can see the sense in dodge over jump up or juggernaut.

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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 17, 2014 - 03:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Juggernaut is great with frenzy - it increases the chance you get to male the second block at all, since sometimes the first block will be both down, and mostly everyone has blocl or wrestle.

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Apr 17, 2014 - 08:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Steady on indeed, chaps. This issue isn't nearly worth the fallout. Especially when the player in question hasn't even been called a Dragon Warrior to begin with, that's the real shame. Sad

I've never had a Clawpomb player, but I hear they're pretty useful. I've never had a Diving Catch, NOS Amazon Catcher, but I know that I can do better, because I've played a bit of Blood Bowl. I've always been happier with the 'I've never jumped off a cliff, but I know from being alive it's probably an error' logic than 'Until you've tried flying, you won't know if you can do it' myself. Yes, my Jugs use has been fairly limited, but by correct design!

This current forum fashion for Jugs is really pretty misplaced (in my view), especially when it's being suggested to a relatively new coach who is better served learning good, solid BB and skills to take than trying to be extra cute. It seems to be the hipster choice of late, but in reality, the gain of having the skill, especially on a relatively early double, is such a marginal one when more realistic, staple skills that will see more use exist. Honestly, if you're benefiting from surfs you feel you wouldn't have had (one of the general arguments pro), your opponents are making errors, you're not being clever. If you think you're being cute cancelling Wrestle or lesser, marginal use skills, well done, but you'd be getting more value elsewhere, even if that value isn't quite as cool, it's more obvious and plentiful. I suspect there is lots of conformation bias at play in the pro camp.

Ho hum. Perhaps this loop has been closed. I suppose it suits me if others make this sort of selection, but it's certainly not worth falling out over if they do. My only issue is that it's a newish coach, so we should be presenting best practice rather than trying to be clever.

Adieu, and behave. Wink
Badoek



Joined: May 17, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 17, 2014 - 08:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
It seems to be the hipster choice of late


Laughing Laughing

Anyway, +1 for the rest Purplegoo said.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 17, 2014 - 16:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh come on now, I was just making more pop corn.

If the complainer and Mr. Lame-meme want to have a slap fight let them. It's not like anyone will care if either gets hurt in the process.
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