Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Apr 22, 2014 - 11:51 |
 
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Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
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Apr 22, 2014 - 12:42 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | | Rabe wrote: | | Just saying that there's a lot of bad advice and then leaving the one asking in the rain is not exactly helpful, in my opinion, Rat_Salat. |
Read my advice, then read the ones saying the opposite. No need to name and shame. |
No naming and shaming intended. No need to pull out the big guns. 
Just read comments like that in a few threads now and I'm just worrying about the communication itself. Re-read your posts and its certainly sound advice, although it doesn't seem to me it's not arguable, as I find others making good - opposed - points in their direct replies as well. Maybe I just don't see it or lack experience myself. I just wanted to point out that it might not be too easy to benefit from your (for some other contributers even potentially offending) statement on bad advice (in contrary to your concrete hints).
My apologies if I didn't explain myself enough and therefore sounded harsh. I also admit that I did not remember that you took quite some efforts to answer the thread's question and totally understand that you found my reply blunt at best. |
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Stonetroll
Joined: Jun 30, 2005
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Apr 22, 2014 - 13:23 |
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For some reason I also find it bad advice to tell people there is only one way to play chaos. Sure getting block first is generally good, since its the best skill in the game. But relying on the 3 skill killstack will leavy you a noob even after thousands of games.
The funny thing about chaos is with mutations you can generally make better specialist players than almost any team, once you have a decent team with enough basic players, usually just needing one double or stat. Some examples below:
DT + prehensile tail, -3 to dodge away is a big number. Also multiple tails stack.
leap + VLL, cool like slann but better since you blitz with st4
AG4 + big hand means 2+ pickup anywhere when you pop the ball free on defence
+MA + two heads for a fast guy who can dodge
Tentacles on any st4 player, 41% odds against normal players dodging away is good if there are multiple dodges per turn, like say against elves. Also good for draining opponent team rerolls since skills don't help against it (except pro, but who ever picks it)
Only really bad mutations are FA and DP, if they were one skill choice like they used to it might be worth picking. And if you want them its easier to play nurgle. Maybe DP + passblock but its still pretty meh.
In closing I'd like to warn against chaos hipsterism though, picking weird skills won't make you any cooler than the mainstream sheep with their clawbomb teams |
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Hitonagashi
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
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Apr 22, 2014 - 14:44 |
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| Stonetroll wrote: | For some reason I also find it bad advice to tell people there is only one way to play chaos. Sure getting block first is generally good, since its the best skill in the game. But relying on the 3 skill killstack will leavy you a noob even after thousands of games.
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This +1 million.
There's a difference between relying on it and taking it. With Chaos, your primary tactic should always be "control the game through strength and positional play", with a secondary tactic of "removing players helps me outnumber my opponent to dominate through space.
If you are relying on getting 4 players out by halftime in order for your plans to work, you are never going to improve as a player. Positional placement can be learnt from experience. How to always roll a 10+ can never be learnt. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Apr 22, 2014 - 18:37 |
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| Stonetroll wrote: | | In closing I'd like to warn against chaos hipsterism though, picking weird skills won't make you any cooler than the mainstream sheep with their clawbomb teams |
I think it would in many coaches eyes! |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 22, 2014 - 18:58 |
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| Hitonagashi wrote: |
There's a difference between relying on it and taking it. |
Well this interesting. It all depends on how you look at things IMO.
I take blodge because I rely on it to give me the best odds when getting blocked and to give me a free reroll most of the time on a dodge out. AG 4 elf teams rely on Blodge above all other skills.
Chaos and all bash teams are the opposite. They take the heavy bash skills, MB, PO and claw because they rely on those skills to inflict pain and suffering, that is their ying to the blodge yang of Blood Bowl.
So the idea that it is a bad idea to rely on bash skills to win is interesting ARE "we" telling AG4 elf teams to avoid blodging up because it is a bad tactic to rely on?
Learning how to position players, the pacing of the game on how it flows and moves and having the experience to have a good idea of what you opponent is going to try next turn or what his plans are only come from playing.
This idea that taking a easy skill set like CPOMB somehow retards you progress towards becoming a better coach in my mind does not fly.
A coach who relies on CPOMB will become better when that skill combo is not winning matches and then that coach will decide for himself if he wants to get better at playing the game and picking up the subtle nature of BB OR he will just become a mindless drone and CPOMB away.
Just like the mindless drones who elfball it with blodge and AG4 and scream to the heavens when that AG4 just lets them down over and over again.
Becoming a good coach has nothing to do with skill selection but rather matches played and you make a effort to learn and apply lessons from your mistakes. Most coaches IMO do not do this but take the path of least resistance and scream to the heavens and NUFFLE and just keep repeating the same old mistakes and not trying to improve, that takes effort man. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 22, 2014 - 19:56 |
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Here is the real conundrum that Chaos teams face.
To illustrate my point I will compare Chaos against Human teams.
Chaos start out with no skills beside horns on the entire roster but the mino. Horns are only good on the blitz move so in essence you can only use it 16 times a match max. The roster is a two positional lineup with no direction built in, they are a blank sheet of paper.
Humans have 4 positionals pre skilled for their job with a Ogre. All their positional players have the basic core skills for their job. So a standard Human team with 4 Blitzers, 2 catchers and a Thrower have 10 core skills all ready loaded up for their specific job.
So lets look at that chaos team. Well I need some hitters, I need a ball handler or two if I get lucky on a +AG, I need some line fodder types, a specility player or two thrown in. The Chaos team needs to build its positional players. They are already behind the 8 ball 1 to two skills just to get the basic skills for their main job on EVERY PLAYER.
Then you sit back and put pencil to paper and write down what your team should look like in your mind and you step back and realize you now need 4 CW and 6 beastmen all at 31+SPP just to get this plan up and running. The total # of skills needed is a very daunting task for chaos.
Next thing you know you are scratching this idea and that idea and all you are left with is 4 killer bash guy with your AG4 beast ball handler and hope you can scrap a few others to 16+ to help them out. All the fun ideas for chaos go out the window when faced off against this huge skill burden your team needs.
Now this brings up the FUMBBL specific issue of Ranked or Box.
Chaos in those two Divs are polar opposite.
In Ranked it is not just the elf ballers who get the advantage of "picking" it is the chaos teams also. They avoid taking the CPOMB early (Only on the Mino if you have one) in their build, they are getting matches. You can now over the long haul have a much easier chance at building that unique anti-elf baller build and at the same time have a few players with some serious firepower to handle the bash teams.
Box on the other hand is a arms race, lets just admit it, chaos does not have the time to build up this manicured, take on all types of teams approach that the ranked chaos teams do. It is ramp up the firepower to max power ASAP and if you get lucky on the CAS against maybe, just maybe at 1800 TV you will have one or two unique beastmen to support your core of CPOMB.
So in the end the real conundrum is Chaos has the potential for all these unique builds because they start out as a blank sheet BUT the Div they play in heavily influnces what direction you take a chaos team in.
As a side note: Most ranked Chaos builds really dislike running into a Box style Chaos/Nurgle team in ranked. They are not equiped to handle them when it comes time to throw down in the massive scrumm for 3 turns. Just like most Box Chaos teams are not equiped to handle those elftastic blodge teams in Box.
Ranked Chaos builds to compete against the Blodge. Box chaos builds to compete against the heavy bash. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:40 |
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Painstate... good points but,
Those tentacles/prehensile tail/diving tackle anti-elf Chaos teams are so stupidly stacked against elves that you would have to be half a moron to take the game. In any event, they are significantly less scary than your run of the mill tacklepombing ranked orcs who will just kill or injure every man on your side. Or for that matter, various tacklepombing human/dark elf teams that also play exclusively against elves.
There's plenty of ways to tweak most rosters to sucker in stupid elf coaches. More than one tacklepomber, more than 4 tackle, or a proliferation of diving tackle, tentacles, and prehensile tail are pretty good signs that you're being cherrypicked.
I don't really consider building your chaos team to crush dumb elf coaches to be any more "honorable" than simply playing chaos as the bashers they are meant to be... at least you're being honest about your cheese. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 23, 2014 - 06:56 |
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Rat my views on this subject also are colored by the rose colored glasses of tournament play. In both Ranked and Box play you will be confronted most of the time with those elftastic blodge teams, you need to build some form of defense against that, in ranked play it is a lot easier.
Now for just general play, I do not give a flip about tournament play.
The biggest issue with Ranked is exactly what you are talking about. If I want to play chaos and build my team up. I have to water down my team, take skills to make them more palatable to play against against a broad range of teams, not just the elf teams but a lot of the tweener teams.
If a chaos team goes all in on CPOMB or a Human team goes all PO/MB/T on all their blitzers and takes PO on the ogre the game finder goes drier than the mojave desert in August. Not just the elf teams but almost every single team except for the few AV9 bash teams fall off the game finder and will never play you.
Thus the birth of the Box back in the day.
So now for the general open play guy if he wants to play CPOMB heavy bash in Ranked he needs to dip his toes into the schedule SMACKS to get around this dynamic.
The Box coach then sees no reason what so ever to build a roster to defeat blodge since 1 in 5 matches at high TV seem to fall under that label and off he goes on the heavy bash CPOMB course. Of course he will sprinkle limited tackle and so forth but his team by no means would be called a anti-elfballer bulid.
Which brings us back to the core of the conundrum. Chaos is a blank sheet of paper with what seems like limitless team build options. But in the end they are not, they are a roster built for dishing out CAS and causing all kinds of pain and suffering. Thus some coaches get very frustrated with them because this dream of a unique chaos team build is all a fantasy.
The real challenge of Chaos is they can dish out huge serious firepower but have a weak line up with AV8 on the majority of players. So they are a fragile bash team unlike Orcs.dorfs and CD's. Which for some coaches is the challenge for them and they enjoy that. Also that is the pit trap that new coaches to BB fall into. They see the upside of the CAS but do not realize how fragile Chaos trully are. That is why I feel chaos is a team for advanced coaches.
Which of course is why box chaos gets a bad rep because it seems a lot of the coaches seem to always act like "new" coaches and just load up on the CPOMB and hit Yes at every do you want to pile on prompt. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 23, 2014 - 07:43 |
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This is because piling on is a broken mechanic that has the added bonus of being no fun to play against. If piling on didn't exist, box chaos coaches would probably take more tackle instead of being elf food. Claw/Mighty Blow is a decent enough counter to AV9 bash, and Tackle/Mighty Blow is fine and peachy against blodge. What isn't cool is tacklepomb against AV7 and Clawpomb vs Saurus.
Nobody enjoys playing against the killstack on a hot streak. Losing 2-4 players on turn 1 due to not-so-unrealistic dice is stupid. Ranked, where players can pick their opponents, has shown that people don't want to play against it. People have no problems playing against dirty oneturning rats, Str5 Human Blitzers, or overpowered wardancers. But they sure as hell don't want to get smashed into pieces by dice rolling werewolves, Chaos Warriors, Stormvermin, or Pestigors.
Sadly this will likely never get fixed, as GW doesn't care enough to give us a new ruleset, and the rules commitee screwed up hard the last time around. Until such time, heavy bash faceroll teams will continue be the pariahs of gamefinder, hoping to find someone dumb, bored, or desperate enough to give them a game, complaining all the while about pixel hugging noobs while expertly ducking bash teams themselves.
This isn't to say that you can't take advantage of the situation, and I sure don't shy away from desperate chaos bashers looking to hunt some elves. Barring a terrific stroke of bad luck, Wood Elf vs Chaos is almost always a sure win, as I offer up a sacrificial treeman on the altar of claw while I run away with a 4-0 win and enough winnings to replace the dead rookie linemen. It's almost comical to see them desperately arrange enough assists to clawpomb down that juicy treeman while the rest of the team dashes past their killers to score yet another touchdown. |
Last edited by Rat_Salat on %b %23, %2014 - %08:%Apr; edited 2 times in total |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Apr 23, 2014 - 07:54 |
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I would love to edit content as well as language (crikey, this has been a sad, cynical few posts. I'm glad this is a timezone I don't frequent, and I dread to think the false impression you're giving our newcomer), but I cannot. As it is, behave. You know well enough the odd asterisk is not acceptable. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Apr 23, 2014 - 07:55 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | | Claw/Mighty Blow is a decent enough counter to AV9 bash |
But most teams cannot take claw.
| Rat_Salat wrote: | | People have no problems playing against dirty oneturning rats, Str5 Human Blitzers, or overpowered wardancers. |
Speak for yourself.
| Rat_Salat wrote: |
Sadly this will likely never get fixed, as GW doesn't care enough to give us a new ruleset, and the rules commitee screwed up hard the last time around. Until such time, heavy bash faceroll teams will continue to lurk in gamefinder, hoping to find someone dumb, bored, or desperate enough to give them a game, complaining all the while about pixel hugging noobs while expertly ducking bash teams themselves. |
The commish runs the league not GW or the BBRC.
Edit: Was the Box down yesterday? It did less business than [L]eague |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 23, 2014 - 08:01 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | I would love to edit content as well as language (crikey, this has been a sad, cynical few posts. I'm glad this is a timezone I don't frequent, and I dread to think the false impression you're giving our newcomer), but I cannot. As it is, behave. You know well enough the odd asterisk is not acceptable. |
I didn't, but I've been off IRC long enough to forget how puritanical we're expected to be around here. Hopefully crap isn't enough for a kickban.
Edit: wasn't fast enough, but I guess "screwed up" works too.
| Quote: | | The commish runs the league not GW or the BBRC. |
House rules rarely get widely accepted, and for every elf coach who thinks piling on is the problem, there are an equal number of orc coaches crying about claw. Good luck getting consensus there. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Apr 23, 2014 - 08:32 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: |
House rules rarely get widely accepted, and for every elf coach who thinks piling on is the problem, there are an equal number of orc coaches crying about claw. Good luck getting consensus there. |
Well, that is your problem then. And of course some people think that CPOMB is heaps of fun. 
I suppose [L]eague is the way to go. \o/ |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 23, 2014 - 08:44 |
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Cynical?
I thought I summarized Chaos pretty spot on. In fact our new coach wanted to know what "we" thought about skilling them up. I think I laid it out really nice for him.
On top of it all he said he was a lifelong Orc coach. If he takes my advice he will go back to Orcs until he gets up and running on FUMBBL and does not get frustrated trying to play chaos right out of the gate. |
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