xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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 Posted:
Jul 28, 2014 - 20:42 |
 
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" High Elves are very battle-hardened individuals seeing their island invaded many times." True in WFB. Not true in BB, as war has been replaced by sport. As Garion mentioned, although the worlds overlap a lot, they are not the same. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 28, 2014 - 21:31 |
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Nerfbird, you're missing some key points in Elf history. As JF and Garion have said/hinted the peak of GW fluff was unfortunately before your time, and this is 2nd ed Bloodbowl/3rd ed Warhammer. Aka 1988-1991. At this point there were more outside influences; this generally being middle earth and dungeons and dragons.
Sea Elves had definitive fluff back then and a definitive roll, unlike now where they're general high elves.
The hardest and most dour elves took to the sea to defend their homelands against invaders. Generally these were pirates and dark elves. Most elves lived in peace and live a life of decadence because of the hard solid and generally unrewarded work of the sea elves. Sea Elves are areas on the sea side of the mountains most prone to attack.
Therefore they have developed differently to their inward cousins and are far more dour and hardy. This is what Sea Elf rosters try to resemble; and I -1 ma for +1av is most certainly (in my mind) the way to replicate this. |
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mrbibitte3
Joined: Mar 28, 2013
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Jul 28, 2014 - 22:14 |
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I always thought high elves were wussies members of an exclusive club not hiring new members.
Sea elves ? They are a chapter of the aforementioned exclusive club, but living on boats...
Garden elves ? They are the ones who eat all your kitchen garden's seedlings while you're sleeping. |
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NerdBird
Joined: Apr 08, 2014
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Jul 29, 2014 - 01:43 |
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High Elves were not introduced as a team until 3rd Edition which is the edition I started playing. 3rd edition came out in 1994 I believe. So all these references to 2nd, are really before the High Elves time.... The game took a major turn in these editions too.
This is a GW game and GW games and their fluff do tend to contradict themselves much of the time so I understand some of the confusion. I do not understand why it is a bad thing to merge the world and have a cohesive understanding in terms of background info. You guys are referencing 2nd or 3rd edition for fluff when we are in LRB 6.0. This is like referencing armies that no longer exist or rules from old editions. Squats in 40K come to mind. Or Chaos Dwarf armies rather than just units. It is obviously based off of Warhammer Fantasy Battle so lets keep it that way....crikey.
All of the specialist games have always been based off of the WFB world or 40K universe. Blood Bowl was always considered as part of the Warhammer Fantasy World until Jervis decided sometime after (4th edition?) that it was seperate. They even share approximately the same timeline.
It seems when it is convenient, we use the warhammer world for fluff and referencing races and teams, and when it may not be exactly what we envision we diregard it since Jervis said it is a "similar" world.
Regardless, High Elves are one of the Top Tier Armies in WFB. They should be in BB but starting out are probably the crap-most team. Darkies shouldn't have a better roster afterall they are very close cousins.
I have never seen any of the fluff of Sea Elves for BloodBowl. None of this fluff exists in the Army Books I have...4th-8th edition. Also, I perused my Man O War material and I dont see any reference to these "tough" sea elves. If someone could point me towards this information, I would be much obliged.
Some people, claim they should just drop the High Elves and that would be fine by me if they are not going to make them as good or better than the Darkies and Woodies. The Pro Elf models just look stupid and the idea of a bunch of vagrant Elves playing does not interest me. |
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NerdBird
Joined: Apr 08, 2014
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Jul 29, 2014 - 01:49 |
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| mrbibitte3 wrote: | I always thought high elves were wussies members of an exclusive club not hiring new members.
Sea elves ? They are a chapter of the aforementioned exclusive club, but living on boats...
Garden elves ? They are the ones who eat all your kitchen garden's seedlings while you're sleeping. |
Heh, I am very good with my High Elf army in Fantasy Battle. They are anything but wusses and kill everything pretty handily.  The only army to ever destroy me was a Nurgle army.... uggh. |
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buuface
Joined: Apr 23, 2014
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Jul 29, 2014 - 04:12 |
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MY humble suggestion for Brettonion Roster
0-16 Peasants 6 3 3 7 G - 40000 fodder
0-4 Yeomen 6 3 3 8 G/S - 60000 attendants to a noble household
0-4 Squires 7 3 3 7 G/A/P - Sure Hands 70000 knights personal lance carrier etc
0-4 Knights 7 3 3 9 G/S/A/P - Block, Dauntless - 120000 - powerful, versatile, but prohibitively expensive
This team would allow both finesse and strength based builds depending on what the player prefers. I don't think it would be overpowered because fielding 4 knights would be difficult in terms of cost. The roster would also take some skilling to become effective |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 29, 2014 - 06:24 |
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Re Nerdbird
Hmmmmmmm where to start....Firstly, I think you're missing the point of Secret League. Secret League isn't trying to improve the official game; it's adding roster options to the game and giving the commissioner and coaches more choice.
So it's up to a commissioner whether (for example) he wants to use 3rd ed bb/4th ed onward warhammer fluff for his High Elf team (Lion/Dragon/Phoenix Warriors) or go with current thinking (that mixing warhammer and bloodbowl was a mistake) and call them catchers/blitzers and throwers.
What Secret League would do (possibly and as an example) is theorize that actually Lion/Dragon/Phoenix warriors are a different or have no evolved differently and have different stats and are therefore different positionals. I'm not saying this is the case, but a possibility.
So Secret League will take fluff from a wide variety of sources and bend it to it's benefit and make a roster from it. It maybe sometimes far-fetched and reaching, but the whole idea is to give that option. If you dislike the option, you're free not to use them. If you dislike parts of the option, then I would hope you're free to use just the parts you like. I very much doubt that Secret League rosters will be added to FUMBBL as rosters. Christer, has never had an interest in doing this. Instead they are there as a resource for if/when Christer makes League fully custom.
Although BB is set on the world of warhammer, it is quite different. Fluff is deliberately looser and inconsistencies aren't as much of a worry (or a worry at all in some cases). As for High Elves pre BB 3rd ed. Well they existed, because they existed in Warhammer. However in 2nd ed BB, teams and races were more in important and army make up were removed to a certain extent. Thus an elf was an elf. So as different types of elves existed, they can be added. This isn't the point though. BB isn't consistent (example: Wood Elves have a Wardancer everyone else has Blitzers) and Secret League isn't trying to be either. It's a resource, even the fluff isn't trying to be consistent. Some will be tongue and cheek and humorous, other parts will be more serious. If there's enough potential, then a roster can be added. If the fluff and roster options are uninspiring, then there is little point. SL is just that.
So yes, we're referencing ANY fluff. There's even fishmen options that have no fluff......just a slot in a schedule. The cohesion comes from the commissioner, who picks and chooses what teams he wants in his league. That isn't the job of Secret League at all. As an example, I think some of the 40k fluff is quite cool (particularly the Ork clans). I am making them an option in Secret League Classic.
Example: Evil Sunz. The Evil Sunz team come from a tribe that is obsessed with speed. They paint their war boars and battle wagons red and strip them of armour to reach the highest possible speeds.
To replicate this on the Blood Bowl pitch. The team plays in all red, even with red face paint and lose 1 point of av for 1 point of ma. What you then have is an orc team that plays a little differently than a normal orc team. Not your cup of tea? Then don't use them. Simples. Is this consistent with fluff for other teams? Of course not, it isn't trying to be. Neither is the tongue and cheek approach to BB. You hit the nail right on the head with 'convenient'. That's this whole debate in one word. When it's convenient and useful; we use it. When it's not; we don't. Obviously everyone has a different understand of what's convenient. So it's up to the Commissioner on what fluff is convenient and what is garbage. If that's you....probably not Sea Elves and 2nd ed. That's totally fine, it's your League, not mine or Garion's.
Regarding Darkies being better than High Elves. Well they're meant to be equal. The problem is with the game, not the rosters. In that running is superior to throwing. Dark Elves are meant (fluff and roster design) to be better runners. Where as High Elves are better throwers. As they fit the fluff, the game would need to change to bring the roster back parallel. That said, it's not that High Elves are dire or anything. Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with Secret League. Secret League is not NTBB, or trying to do anything like what NTBB is trying to do.
As for Sea Elves http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sea_Elves_(outdated) here is a page on where you can find fluff. There isn't that much and I can paraphrase some of the useful parts. In short "Elves on or around the coast have a tradition of seamanship and fight. They also lack the normal elven disdain of hard physical labour.........Life can be hard in these lands, and so are the inhabitants......yada yada yada".
Anyway you get the idea. As for look, well there were some Sea Elf figures. Particularly of note was the 'Marine bolt thrower' and the look of the crew. This was kind of a prototype look for 4th ed onward warhammer high elves; particularly those plastic spearmen. So for me, that is the definitive look of sea elves. Gleaming chainmail the silvery colour of the sea. Long tall helmets.
So that's how I envision them. I'm not sure if I had any influence on the Secret League roster (certainly not the look or the positionals). However I totally agree with the av/ma trade off. This is exactly what I would do too. Playwise, it makes for a very interesting roster and an interpretation from the limited fluff and the heavily armoured Marine figures that were available.
P.S. I love the Pro Elf look (particularly the 2nd ed figs) and I don't think I'm alone.
Re Buuface
Yeah that's a fine roster, you keep it simple, which I like.
Some points I'd like to make though.
1. Would you want 4 players on your team with sure hands?
2. Really, you have 2 types of linemen. We've done this before too, where roster options have been limited. However with so much to choose from, do you want to do it with Brets?
3. Brets really are all about the Knights. I like dauntless. It's a Knight type skill. However I'd like to see a second type of Knight. Keeping to Warhammer Knight naming policies is optional though. But if the fluffs there, why not utilise it? |
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babass
Joined: Apr 20, 2013
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Jul 29, 2014 - 08:23 |
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| Garion wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: |
Witch Elves, Garion was worried about pricing. Personally I think there should be the 2 options. 1 expensive (av8) and one cheaper (av7).
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I wasn't worried about the pricing, that roster was really straight forward. Witch Elves stay the same, linemen are the same as pro elves. The only thing I wasn't 100% on was whether to limit witch elves to 6 or 8, but we decided that taking 8 would probably be detrimental anyway, so might as well let people play the all out crazy frenzy way if they wish  |
Actually, i just remember this message i read yesterday.
and I refind the the rules for team creation from Galak.
I would put 0-6 for the witches because of those rules...
[spoiler]
| Quote: | There are two method of team creation rules ... running your team through both rule sets helps you make sure your team is making sense:
Rule Set #1 (system I created on request from Cyanide as an update to work with the CRP ruleset)
Creating your own team for Blood Bowl
General Team Rules:
1) No team can have AG 4 and ST 4+ players (unless the ST 4+ players are a Big Guy or Vampire)
2) Total Strength of the 16 highest ST players should not exceed 54
3) Take all players over 100k in price that are not Big Guy stock. Subtract 100k from each of their price and multiple this amount * the maximum number allowed. Total this amount for the team. This amount cannot exceed 60k. (Example the Chaos Dwarf team has 2 non Big Guy players over 100k. The Bull Centaurs are 130k. Subtract 100k from each and multiple by the 2 they are allowed and you get 60k so that team is okay.
4) No team should have more than 2 0-16 slots or more than 6 different positions (including the lineman slot) allowed on the team. (Example the Orc team has 6 different positions).
5) Slots not set at 0-16 are limited to 0-6 maximum allowed.
6) A team cannot have Agile player types and Blocker player types on the same roster.
7) Team Re-roll prices should not be set at less than 50k.
8/ No player's ST + AG should be more than 7.
General Rules for creating players:
1) If the player's initial calculated price is over 100k. Divide the amount of the player's price over 100k by 2 to determine the player's final calculated price. So a player worth 140k when calculated would have a final calculated price of 120k. (note if after this is done the player in to an even 10k increment then you need to apply rule 2 below before you have the true final calculated price).
2) If a player's calculated price is not a round 10k price. Round down 5k amounts over 100k and round up 5k amounts if under 100k. So a player worth 35k when calculated would have a final price of 40k while a player whose price was 135k after applying the divide by 2 rule above would have a final calculated price of 130k.
3) Any player's final calculated price may be modified by 10k more or less from the calculated price to achieve overall team balance. This is pretty important to balancing a roster in the long run.
4) If a player's price is adjusted down from the final calculated price then this amount should be multiplied by the number of players in that slot. No team should be allowed to have this total amount for all players exceed 40k total for the team. Players made more expensive than their calculated price should not be factored in. (Example if the 0-16 slot for a team calculated to 60k and the price was adjusted to 50k then this would be 16*10=160k of discount and would be disallowed.) (Remember that all discounted players needed added. So if the team has two 0-4 slot players and each player is discounted 10k then this would be 80k of team discount and the team should not be allowed to be created.)
5) No weapon players should be allowed to be created and placed on teams (other than Stab). So no Secret Weapon, Bombardier, Chainsaw, Ball & Chain players created new for rosters.
PLAYER TYPES:
1) BASIC PLAYER This player type starts as: 6/3/3/8 No Skills -- 50,000 gold
This type is allowed for 0-16 slots or 0-6, 0-4, 0-2 slots No player of this type should be priced for less than 30k Skills disallowed to this player type: Right Stuff, Stunty, Titchy, Always Hungry, Throw Team-Mate, Loner, Bone-head, Wild Animal, Really Stupid, Take Root All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following: 30k: Regeneration 20k: Having Block and Dodge on the same player (this is on top of the 40k the player paid for Block and Dodge already) 10k: Horns, Pass, and Thick Skull 5k: Leap and Very Long Legs -5k: Decay The following stat changes are allowed to this player type: MA 4: -20k MA 5: -10k MA 7: +20k MA 8: +30k ST 2: -30k AG 2: -20k AV 7: -10k (if the player has NO other skills or stat increases) AV 7: -20k AV 9: +10k
2) AGILE PLAYER This player type starts as: 6/3/4/8 No Skills -- 70,000 gold
This type is allowed for 0-16 slots or 0-6, 0-4, 0-2 slots No player of this type should be priced for less than 60k Skills disallowed to this player type: Right Stuff, Stunty, Titchy, Always Hungry, Throw Team-Mate, Loner, Bone-head, Wild Animal, Really Stupid, Take Root All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following: 30k: Regeneration 20k: Having Block and Dodge on the same player (this is on top of the 40k the player paid for Block and Dodge already) 10k: Horns, Safe Throw, Thick Skull, and Very Long Legs -10k: Decay The following stat changes are allowed to this player type: MA 7: +10k MA 8: +20k MA 9: +40k ST 2: -30k AV 7: -10k (if the player has NO other skills or stat increases) AV 7: -20k AV 9: +20k
3) STUNTY PLAYER This player type starts as: 6/2/3/7 Dodge, Stunty -- 30,000 gold
This type is allowed for 0-16 slots or 0-6, 0-4, 0-2 slots No player of this type should be priced for less than 20k Skills disallowed to this player type: Always Hungry, Throw Team-Mate, Loner, Bone-head, Wild Animal, Really Stupid, Take Root All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following: 40k: Block 30k: Regeneration 10k: Right Stuff 0k: Titchy -10k: Decay The following stat changes are allowed to this player type: MA 5: -5k MA 7: +15k MA 8: +30k ST 1: -15k AV 5: -20k AV 6: -5k
4) BLOCKER PLAYER This player type starts as: 4/4/2/9 -- 80,000 gold
This type is allowed for 0-6, 0-4, 0-2 slots No player of this type should be priced for less than 80k Skills disallowed to this player type: Block, Claw, Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty, Titchy, Always Hungry, Throw Team-Mate, Loner, Bone-head, Wild Animal, Really Stupid, Take Root All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following: 10k: Thick Skull, Disturbing Presense -5k: Decay The following stat changes are allowed to this player type: MA 3: -20k MA 5: +10k MA 6: +30k ST 5: +40k AG 1: -20k AG 3: +20k AV 7: -30k AV 8: -20k AV 10: +30k
5) BIG GUY PLAYER This player type starts as: 5/5/2/9 (Loner), (Negatrait), (Damage Skill) -- 160,000 gold A team should only be allowed to have one Big Guy type on it
Allowed: If the team has any ST 3+ players (other than the Big Guy) then 0-1 allowed If the team's strongest other players are ST 2 then 0-2 or 0-1 allowed If the team's strongest other players are ST 1 then 0-6, 0-4, 0-2, or 0-1 allowed No player of this type should be priced for less than 110k
Skills disallowed to this player type: Block, Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty, Titchy Loner: If the team has no other players with ST over 2 than the Big Guy should be allowed to have Loner removed (if desired) for no increase to his price. Negatraits (a Big Guy must have one of these): Bone-head and Wild Animal do not change the price Really Stupid subtracts 20k from the price Take Root subtracts 30k from the price Damage Skill (a Big Guy must have one of these 2 skills): Mighty Blow does not change the price Claw adds 10k to the price
All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following: 10k: Thick Skull, Throw Team-Mate -10k: Always Hungry skill (Note: a Big Guy MUST have Throw Team-Mate to take Always Hungry) -10k: Decay
The following stat changes are allowed to this player type: MA 2: -90k MA 3: -50k MA 4: -20k MA 6: +30k ST 6: +50k AG 1: -20k AV 8: -10k AV 10: +20k
6) SPECIAL PLAYER (and other notes) Vampire 110k 6/4/4/8 Blood Lust, Hypnotic Gaze, Regeneration 0-6, 0-4, 0-2, or 0-1 allowed No modification or extra skills allowed to this player type
Other Notes:
1) The above will allow you to create almost all of the official Blood Bowl teams along with balancing of teams folks want to create to try something new.
2) Please note … the above rules will NOT allow you to create 4 of the official teams … namely the Dwarf, Goblin, Chaos Pact and Lizardman teams. The Goblin and Dwarf teams because they have weapons on the roster, Chaos Pact because they have too many slots (7) and the Lizardman team because it has 70k of team discount (10k discount each on the 0-6 Saurus and the 0-1 Kroxigor).
3) If you want to allow teams to add in Vampires (which would be fun) a very easy way to program in the Blood Lust skill would be to allow them to attack any member of their own team that does not have Regeneration (a very easy modification that will have the skill work perfectly and allow the Vampire player to be added into other teams).
4) Note on prices for the Big Guys. The starting price still gets divided by 2 for the amount over 100k when you do the first price calculation. Example: So a base Big Guy with MA 6 and Loner, Bone-head, and Mighty Blow would be 160k+30k=190k. Divide the 90k by 2 = 45k. 190k-45k = 145k. Round down and the final calculated price of the Big Guy would be 140k.
5) If you to try and have the most balanced teams possible. I strongly recommend not making changes to any stats (Move, Strength, Agility, Armour) other than the ones I listed for each player type
Rule Set #2 (Jervis's original design):
http://www.midgardbb.com/NewBBTeamBuildingGuide.html
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[/spoiler]
And i'm quite surprised that so many rosters from your secret list do not follow these rules.
Like (not-exhaustiv)
1) No team can have AG 4 and ST 4+ players (unless the ST 4+ players are a Big Guy or Vampire)
Pirate Teams
3) Take all players over 100k in price that are not Big Guy stock. Subtract 100k from each of their price and multiple this amount * the maximum number allowed. Total this amount for the team. This amount cannot exceed 60k. (Example the Chaos Dwarf team has 2 non Big Guy players over 100k. The Bull Centaurs are 130k. Subtract 100k from each and multiple by the 2 they are allowed and you get 60k so that team is okay.
Were team
5) Slots not set at 0-16 are limited to 0-6 maximum allowed.
Witch Elf Teams (with one 0-8 )
8/ No player's ST + AG should be more than 7.
Chaos Daemons Khorne Teams
Undead Pirate Teams
Chaos Daemons Slaanesh Teams |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 29, 2014 - 09:00 |
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Yes I'm aware of the roster creation guide. No I will not reduce the number of witch elves. That guide is just a loose template. Having 8 witch elves in your team will actually make your team weaker than having 6 because it's too much frenzy. But as it's a witch elf roster people should have that option.
I'm finding this thread very tedious having to explain things when if people took the time to read the rationale for each team you would have your answers.
Also yes some teams break the roster creation rules. There are also 4 official teams that break it too. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 29, 2014 - 09:15 |
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| buuface wrote: | MY humble suggestion for Brettonion Roster
0-16 Peasants 6 3 3 7 G - 40000 fodder
0-4 Yeomen 6 3 3 8 G/S - 60000 attendants to a noble household
0-4 Squires 7 3 3 7 G/A/P - Sure Hands 70000 knights personal lance carrier etc
0-4 Knights 7 3 3 9 G/S/A/P - Block, Dauntless - 120000 - powerful, versatile, but prohibitively expensive
This team would allow both finesse and strength based builds depending on what the player prefers. I don't think it would be overpowered because fielding 4 knights would be difficult in terms of cost. The roster would also take some skilling to become effective |
Yes I prefer that as well though would drop the knights ma by 1 |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 29, 2014 - 09:21 |
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As for high elves they are tier 1 already, really don't get why you think they aren't. Also high elf fluff was in 2nd edition too as we're wood elves and sea elves, all the elf teams were just under one umbrella team called elf. |
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selfy_74
Joined: Sep 03, 2010
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Jul 29, 2014 - 09:24 |
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You don't need to explain what you have done, Garion. What you do with your house rules is up to you. And more power to you, it's all good stuff, and a labour of love.
Further to this I would like to put forward a suggestion for the Motley Horde team:
1) Name change to Mongrel Horde
2) Normal access to mutations for all players
3) Every player starts with animosity
Bingo, classic Mongrel Horde, a team very dear to my heart.
Keep up the good work, fellas! |
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Selfy_74: Verified Stunty Leeg Master
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 29, 2014 - 09:29 |
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I think the Malal roster will be similar when I get round to it so you can use that to make your mongrel horde team really easily. Plus it will come with the benefit of recruiting players from opposing teams. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 29, 2014 - 09:29 |
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Yeah, I see Galak's roster creation as a guide. E.g. a lot of people would like to make their own special roster, and a lot of those if not reigned in, will make them overpowered compared to the official teams.
Personally; I'm planning to expand/expanding on the existing tiers. Some of the most famous teams and some of the Dungeonbowl teams naturally place themselves above the best their are already.
Where as college or zombie teams, place them below (or in the same category as the existing Ogres). So for me, rules like '2) Total Strength of the 16 highest ST players should not exceed 54' are meaningless.
It's good to know them, but I cut my reign years ago and have gone whacky with creativity! |
Last edited by harvestmouse on %b %29, %2014 - %09:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 29, 2014 - 09:34 |
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You can make some insanely overpowered teams with that guide. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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