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Pro: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

FUMBBL Forum Index » FUMBBL » Tactics & Strategy

Macabeo

Joined: Feb 13, 2011

Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 21:13

Pro is not a very highly regarded skill in the community, and plenty of good coaches have labelled it as a noobish pick. I do think that Pro has more potential beyond the obvious cases, so I'll try to take a look at the weak and strong points of Pro, Sergio Leone style:

- The Bad: Pro is unreliable. Reliability is the number one priority in Blood Bowl. That alone should make you steer clear of Pro. For those moments in which you must take down that ball carrier or you cannot afford failing that dodge and have a RR in hand, Pro is useless. Also, it overlaps with rerolling skills.

- The Good: The obvious case in which Pro is useful is when failing a roll doesn't end up in a turnover. Negatraits, dauntless, hypnotic gaze, jump up,... Also, if you have no RRs or have already used one this turn, Pro is great, which makes it good for teams that rely on a lot of rolls. However, there are cases in which you may want to use a RR, like a regular block, a failed pick up on a not very dangerous position or a failed dodge when falling doesn't compromise your position. Let's crunch some numbers:

+ Blocks: Let's assume you're throwing a 2d/3d block and both players have block (and the defender maybe dodge). Here are the odds of knocking the defender down:

Code:

Roll 2d block 2d block + Pro 3d block 3d block + Pro
No Dodge 55.6 67.9 70.4 79.9
Dodge 30.6 41.2 42.1 54.3

So essentially, a 2d Pro block is almost as good as a 3d one. A bit more dangerous, as you have the chance of rolling double skulls 1.5 times, and less reliable, as you don't know whether you'll have 2 or 4 dice against the defender, but that's it. Think of the following skill:

Code:

Overpower: When this player throws a 2d block, he may choose to throw a non-rerollable 3d block instead.

If you would choose that skill, then look no further (Pro is a bit worse, but lets you do other stuff).

+ 1 die rolls: Ok, so Pro lets you reroll agility rolls and the like sometimes, but how much do you get out of it? For example, how good is AG3+Pro compared to AG4? Again, numbers:

Code:

Roll 6+ 5+ 4+ 3+ 2+
No Pro 16.7 33.3 50.0 66.7 83.3
Pro 23.6 44.4 62.5 77.7 90.3
Bonus +0.42 +0.67 +0.75 +0.67 +0.42

So Pro is worth between 0.42 and 0.75 AG. For example, an AG3+Pro player dodges out in the open like an AG3.67 player (or an AG3 player with 1.67 heads). Not bad, I'd say.

-The Ugly: Pro has a bad reputation, you will be considered a coach that makes suboptimal skill choices. But that's not all. Say you want to dodge with your AG3+Pro player knowing that your chances are 77.7% instead of 66.7%. However, benefiting from that extra 11% means failing the dodge and then passing a 4+3+, so your opponent will see you throwing a bunch of dice and passing a fairly hard sequence of rolls, and he will assume that you're just being lucky. Remember, if you pick Pro and succeed with it, you'll have to carry that stigma.

bghandras

Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 21:18

I like pro on busy players, like:
wardancer
pomber
surfer (usually pro reroll any non push result including pows when I want to frenzy surf)
Or players which has built in rolls like dauntless, negatrait, leap
If a player has 2 such "skills", then pro is an almost no brainer to me.

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Smeat

Joined: Nov 19, 2006

Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 21:37

Macabeo wrote:

Pro is not a very highly regarded skill in the community, and plenty of good coaches have labelled it as a noobish pick...

This is over-simplified, and so inaccurate.

Pro is "noobish" when the Coach seems to be expecting it to help in game-critical situations (when a Team RR would be the right call), and/or if there is a (obvious?) "core" skill that would be better on that player (or team) rather than Pro (and that happens a surprising amount).

And doubly so b/c it's a [P] skill, and so often (usually) requires ignoring other double-choices to get to.

Pro has its uses* - but it's not all-purpose, not like some seem to think.

(* Vampires are a great example - "every" vamp should have Pro (for the Bloodlust negatrait, and it's then gravy for anything else if the player gets past that), but maybe not until they (at least!) have Blodge first.)

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Let's go A.P.E.!

(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...)

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 21:49

Pro as 2nd skill for Slann linefrogs is something I'd like to try one day.

Overhamsteren

Joined: May 27, 2006

Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 22:11

My pro players:

Pro Warpstone Troll, Great! We need that troll active every turn, giving guard, tentacling people, killing dudes!

Human Blitzer, mighty blow, tackle, guard, dauntless, pro...pretty cool dude! But sure give me some stats or doubles instead.

Human Ogre, jury is still out on this one! Easier to move around, better at smacking skilled players, less of a road block though.

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Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 22:48

The l33t coaches problem with pro is this - you do not want to rr anything that is not going to cause a turn over. Eg a block that is a push . If you pro rr you coul d end up with double skulls and so on. The rolls you do make that will cause a turn over you want to use a team rr so you know the rr at least will work.

There are times when pro can be of use. Vamps and big guys obviously getting the greatest benefit. But the fact of the matter is many other skills are just far superior at achieving your goals - minimizing risks (SH, Dodge etc), maxamising knock downs (block, tackle, wrestle), causing Cas ( mb, po, claw).

It's not an awful skill. But it's something that you can live without and falling back on 50/50 rolls will never sit well with advanced coaches.

But this is a game of dice so some games you no doubt can make good use of it. And each to their own. But many don't like relying on pure luck rolls.

_________________

Macabeo

Joined: Feb 13, 2011

Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 23:30

Smeat wrote:

Pro is "noobish" when the Coach seems to be expecting it to help in game-critical situations (when a Team RR would be the right call), and/or if there is a (obvious?) "core" skill that would be better on that player (or team) rather than Pro (and that happens a surprising amount).

And doubly so b/c it's a [P] skill, and so often (usually) requires ignoring other double-choices to get to.

Pro has its uses* - but it's not all-purpose, not like some seem to think.

(* Vampires are a great example - "every" vamp should have Pro (for the Bloodlust negatrait, and it's then gravy for anything else if the player gets past that), but maybe not until they (at least!) have Blodge first.)

True (except that Pro is not a P access skill). I just wanted to give a few facts about Pro, mainly how it improves the odds of some things you may want to reroll and how it's perceived by some coaches (not all, of course). I think the benefit you get is quite ok, not as good as a core skill but not too shabby either.

MattDakka wrote:

Pro as 2nd skill for Slann linefrogs is something I'd like to try one day.

I tend to go Wrestle+Pro myself unless there's a lot of dodge.

Garion wrote:

It's not an awful skill. But it's something that you can live without and falling back on 50/50 rolls will never sit well with advanced coaches.

But this is a game of dice so some games you no doubt can make good use of it. And each to their own. But many don't like relying on pure luck rolls.

Agreed, pick it only after core skills and probably for non risk-adverse coaches only. The benefits and the drawbacks of Pro are very situational due to its broad range of uses anyway, hence why I gave a few factual odds.

notbobby125

Joined: Feb 28, 2013

Posted: Aug 01, 2014 - 06:42

MattDakka wrote:

Pro as 2nd skill for Slann linefrogs is something I'd like to try one day.

That is an interesting idea. However, on my Slann teams, I need utility skills on the linefrogs. Due to how much Slann players cost, I often find my self dealing with a lot of high value teams, which means a lot of dodge.

My linefrogs also seem to be a magnet for stat increases (I cannot ever let an agility increase go) and doubles (while I could get guard on my blitzers, I got to get other skills first to make great markers/killers).

Catalyst32

Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Posted: Aug 01, 2014 - 08:24

RULES QUESTION: Concerning use of Pro.

Can more than 1 player use Pro during a Turn?

Example:
You are out of Team Rerolls.
Player 1 a Blitzer 2DBlocks and Double Skulls... but he has Pro.
Pro succeeds and allows a Reroll of the Block. Double Pushes.

Player 2 a Lineman 2DBlocks and Double Skulls (BAH!). He also has Pro.
Can he USE Pro to attempt a Reroll?

Smeat

Joined: Nov 19, 2006

Posted: Aug 01, 2014 - 08:32

Macabeo wrote:

True (except that Pro is not a P access skill).

<facepalm>

Derp.

It's a doubles for BG's (who arguably need it most), which was the main point - ah well, I'll learn the details of this game, maybe even in my lifetime. Embarassed

_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!

(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...)

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Aug 01, 2014 - 10:09

Catalyst32 wrote:

Yes. Each instance of the skill is allowed one use in a turn 1 player with pro can use his pro skill one time a turn only. But if you have another player with pro they can still use their pro skill.

Just like any other skill.

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Roland