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Rat_Salat



Joined: Apr 22, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 03:33 Reply with quote Back to top

After reading comments, I'm sad that we're probably never going to see another official ruleset. I think the suggestion to drop 2 blitzers from the DE team is a good one, and we might see a few more runners or assassins if that ever happened.

Now, making High Elves slower, or giving them strength access? Can't say I'm a fan of either idea. AV8 elves are plenty bashy with just doubles to get them strength skills, and AG4 and strength skills don't mix without bloodlust to even things up. Making them slower isn't something I can get behind either.

I know my proposed roster is a little bland, but you could do a lot with the blank slate of 4 dodge catchers.

90k 0-2 Throwers GAP 6/3/4/8 Pass, Safe Throw
110k 0-4 Catchers GA 8/3/4/7 Catch, Dodge
70k 0-16 Linemen GA 6/3/4/8
50k Rerolls

So at creation you would get:
1 Thrower, 4 Catchers, 6 Linemen, 2 Rerolls for 980k

This really isn't THAT much different than having 2 blitzers and 2 catchers. High Elves would still be really tough to beat at 1250-1500tv, but would get quite a bit better at tournament level, as the improved catcher chassis would have one extra skill over the previous version.

I wish I could playtest this team, but for now it's just at theory. I would imagine it would play a lot like a high elf team without blitzers.
fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 05:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I realize this thread really needs to die, but at the risk of taking another whack at the dirt-napping equine, what is so sacred about divorcing AG4 from Ag access? Has it ever been done? Does it not seem redundant? IMO it is the synergy of AG4 with Dodge, combined with the raw power of Block & Dodge skills, separately and together, that make Elves so strong. And by the same token, Tackle is a massive blunt instrument to dull this effect down.

So much more could be done with rosters if Dodge was separated into 2 skills (along with Tackle of course, and maybe Block), and AV8 Linos had regular non-positional skill access. Allowing for finer gradations of skill power makes nuanced variety more possible. You could give HE 4 Catchers but only the dodging part of Dodge, for example.

Anyway this is kind of my own hobby horse. Dead next to this thread, I know.
Fabulander



Joined: Oct 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 09:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I've thought about limiting the A access too. I don't think it is about A4 generally demanding access to agility skills, it's more about an established idea of what makes the basic characteristics of an elf in blood bowl. This includes A4 and A access, and changing that would need some serious explanation fluff-wise to be 'realistic'. Yeah yeah, it's just a board game, but it is always annoying when an obvious balancing solution gets in the way of suspension of disbelief. Since Blood Bowl is really a fantasy football tabletop simulation, I'd prefer unbalanced rules to meaningless rules.

About splitting up Block and Dodge int two skills each, I can see the appeal of greater control of roster strength. However, it would make actual game play slightly more complicated, with more skills to keep track of, and necessitate a complete revision of skill categories, rosters and improvement intervals in order to not completely smash the game. And then I wonder: what would be gained by this exercise? Having some skills that are obviously stronger than others isn't necessarily bad if most teams have access to at least some of them, right? Block is the best skill in the game, but everyone can get it (biggies and stunties aside, and yeah, they could use some kind of boost for that same reason). Unless you start with Block, you are always tempted to take it early, but specialized players might postpone it or ignore it at their own peril. And that's fine, right? Dodge is probably second best, so the rules seem to favour agility teams overall, but then the third and fourth best skills (arguably), Guard and Mighty Blow are both in the strength category, and Tackle provides a generally available counter to dodge. Dividing the skills would require years of playtesting to reestablish this mostly successful game balance.

This is really getting way off topic, but any discussion about elves being too good probably shouldn't be about the two basic survival skills that those really expensive mid/low armour pieces need.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 09:35 Reply with quote Back to top

I would not mind a small identity for High Elves. But I don't support providing overpriced throwers and slightly underpriced blitzers. 90k is a bargain for ag4 blitzer, while even 90k is not underpriced for a thrower with accurate and safe throw.
Throwing sucks generally, and people ususally avoid at least some of the obvious TV bloats. So make the thrower an attractive option, and price aggressively in your proposal. Example:

100k 0-2 Throwers GAP 6/3/4/8 Pass, Safe Throw, Dodge
90k 0-4 Catchers GA 8/3/4/7 Catch
100k 0-2 Blitzers GA 7/3/4/8 Block
70k 0-16 Linemen GA 6/3/4/8

Reroll: 50k

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Fabulander



Joined: Oct 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 10:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Ahh yes, 110 is a bit too much for the thrower, but I still think accurate makes more sense in terms of fluff, and more forcefully moves the team in a passing direction. Dodge would be a power boost, sure, but has very little to do with the player type.

Disregarding the common notion that throwing sucks, I think a throwing team should have a skill set that encourages throwing, and thank Nuffle that there are still non-throwing teams available for anyone who wouldn't bother with it.

The idea for the blitzer was that he's not really a fast blitzer anymore, but a scrimmage specialist lineman who would skill up much slower and get in harms way more often than most. Therefore, the lineelf price +20kgp is a bargain for the safety of block and thick skull, sure, but with the thrower and catcher doing all the razzle dazzle, I doubt the ~10kgp discount would make the team overly strong. Besides, Ulthuan is the most numerous nation of elves, right? Then why do they struggle to field 11 players for the first many games?

With one double for strong arm, this team can make successful long passes on 2+/2+ -> 2+/2+ with small chances of interceptions and without even looking at team re-rolls, so maybe throwing doesn't always have to suck. The pricier re-rolls should make it a bit more difficult to keep up the usual elven dodge-to-safety shenanigans.
gamelsetlmatch



Joined: Mar 05, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 10:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not sure why, yet again, people are resorting to 'changing' stuff..
..I have a few thoughts concerning this Race

Let me start this off by saying: If your elf, regardless of the team, lives more than 20 games, consider yourself lucky.

The High Elves are just fine, the way they are now.

Blitzers - Just avoid building them like a Generic DE Blitzer, they need to be *Special

Catchers - While I am not a big fan of these guys, they have one of the highest returns on investment, in the game. You just have to cycle them in a fashion that best facilitates this.

Throwers - Try this skill progression: Dump Off, Dodge, NoS, Sure Hands...

Linemen - I have found Wrestle to be a useful skill for them. Originally, I thought Dodge next but since they are pretty slow, I feel that JU as the 2nd skill might just do the trick to get them up to speed.

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 10:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Fabulander wrote:
Ahh yes, 110 is a bit too much for the thrower, but I still think accurate makes more sense in terms of fluff, and more forcefully moves the team in a passing direction. Dodge would be a power boost, sure, but has very little to do with the player type.

Disregarding the common notion that throwing sucks, I think a throwing team should have a skill set that encourages throwing, and thank Nuffle that there are still non-throwing teams available for anyone who wouldn't bother with it.

The idea for the blitzer was that he's not really a fast blitzer anymore, but a scrimmage specialist lineman who would skill up much slower and get in harms way more often than most. Therefore, the lineelf price +20kgp is a bargain for the safety of block and thick skull, sure, but with the thrower and catcher doing all the razzle dazzle, I doubt the ~10kgp discount would make the team overly strong. Besides, Ulthuan is the most numerous nation of elves, right? Then why do they struggle to field 11 players for the first many games?

With one double for strong arm, this team can make successful long passes on 2+/2+ -> 2+/2+ with small chances of interceptions and without even looking at team re-rolls, so maybe throwing doesn't always have to suck. The pricier re-rolls should make it a bit more difficult to keep up the usual elven dodge-to-safety shenanigans.


Your suggestion would probably result in me not buying any thrower, thus throwers would be represented less and less, and not more.

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Roland



Joined: May 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 10:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Just make the halves shorter (6 rounds?), or even have 4 quarters by 4 turns.
Then you'll see more passing...


Last edited by Roland on Jan 27, 2015 - 10:36; edited 1 time in total
Roland



Joined: May 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 10:35 Reply with quote Back to top

the.tok wrote:
I'm sorry, but I can't let this slip through :

Roland wrote:
while we're at it, cut undead too, khemri and necro were going to replace them but undead are still around somehow...


Are you suggesting that mummies should be erased from the blood bowl world? Sad
They are a very unique player.
Why do they get so much hate? poor mummies Crying or Very sad


Yes Very Happy
THey were suppose to be cut once, but are still around.
It was when Undead in whfb were split up into tomb kings and vampire counts. The same happened in BB, but Undead remained. I think...
Fabulander



Joined: Oct 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 10:38 Reply with quote Back to top

@bghandras: Well, without a specialist thrower they really are just slightly worse than the other elves. With it, they are different, for better or worse. At least that was my reasoning.

@gameIsetImatch: Changing things is not something to 'resort to', since it is not really an option. It's just musings about what could have been. I don't really mind the team as it is, but compared to the other elves, their players just aren't very colourful.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 10:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I gave the thrower dodge to make them more attractive. It was deliberate, as even non passing coaches may pick up a thrower, which gives them a chance to pass time to time. They would not bank on it, but would use it in special circumstances, thus experiencing the passing aspect of this roster.

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Fabulander



Joined: Oct 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 11:10 Reply with quote Back to top

I see your point. I think it's a bit pessimistic, but maybe really just realistic. Again, I'd prefer a roster with more character, as I don't think 'What's Wrong With High Elves' is really about competitiveness.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 11:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that the best selling point would be the "best thrower" thing. That means at 2 skills on the thrower beyond the pass skill. Ideally it would mean 1 all around great skill, and 1 hard core passing skill. The first would appease the power gamers, the second would appease the passing gamers.
Then there are really 2 skills that make sense as all around skill: sure hands, dodge. (block is for blitzer, guard, mighty blow, etc are not a great fit.)
After that you can make a case to replace safe throw for accurate, but I just stuck with the original skill for "minimal change only" reasons.

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Fabulander



Joined: Oct 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 11:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Fair enough. I guess I just wouldn't bother trying to appease the power gamers Wink
There are plenty of good, competitive teams to choose from, so it would be interesting if High Elves added something else to the game beside another A4 running team.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2015 - 11:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I feel ignored. Very Happy

Well, you point is fair, on one hand. On the other hand if you ignore the power gamers, then why worry about helfs being too weak or underrepresented? You can build them the way you want.

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