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Poll
Is CLAWPOMB really a problem?
Yes, absolutley
55%
 55%  [ 464 ]
No, Chaos Dwarfs Disagree
20%
 20%  [ 174 ]
Still Haven't Decided
8%
 8%  [ 75 ]
Pie!
15%
 15%  [ 127 ]
Total Votes : 840


SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 16:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Replace Claw with an agility skill (named Armor Piercing), plus allow Piling On to ST5+ only.

The first time I read the LRB5 rules I was wondering why a claw which can penetrate a steal armor cant tear a Halfling into pieces. Armor Piercing would fit the wording of the skill better and it would allow to get it for all players. Moreover, only Vampires could take both MB and AP for 40k which is fine for a forlorn team.

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gamelsetlmatch



Joined: Mar 05, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 16:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Make PO an agility check, similar to JU or cost 'X' amount of movement

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 16:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad wrote:
Fair point Jimmy. I've never found that anybody needs to pile on to decimate my elves but your argument is of course valid. I'd be interested to see it run without a corresponding nerf as my feeling is the box could do with a few higher TV non bash teams but I agree I could naively be ushering in an era of blodge AG5 menaces.


From a Box point of view it would be worth it just for a bit more variation. Wink

It might encourage more mutation teams to take tackle earlier instead of claw.

The Black Box Sprint currently only has 6 elf teams in the top 100.
It is not enough to win a game. You still need your best players to be available for the next one to win a Sprint.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 16:56 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
But at the moment T/C-pomb keeps them in check somewhat. You can't change things and expect them to not have a knock on effect.


I have to disagree with you here. If PO gets removed from the game all together (or gets nerfed big time) then everyone takes more tackle and a lot quicker (like in lrb4), this seriously hurts elves. I think PO actually benefits the pointy ears more than anyone else other than super mega CPOMB chaos and nurgz.

Elves gonna elf regardless PO getting nerfed will not benefit them though.

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 16:58 Reply with quote Back to top

This is something which is all fair and reasonable, but we would never know without trying.

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happygrue



Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 17:01 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
But at the moment T/C-pomb keeps them in check somewhat. You can't change things and expect them to not have a knock on effect.


In that vein, if clawpomb actually gets nerfed then the MANY such teams that are mostly built to fight each other (and are easy for elves to beat) might actually start building toward the real threat (elves) and do better against them. It is hilarious to face some 2000+ basher monster that has no tentacles, one tackle and just a smattering of guard.

I would expect there to be a reasonable correction in how good teams are at facing elves which might come close to countering the reduction in damage. Especially since right now a lot of the damage is done at the expense of position. Think about which is harder for elves: a clawpomb monster chaos team with plenty of PO and such or a dorf team with NO PO but plenty of MB and guard? If I really wanted to win with elves I'd want to pay the flavorless chaos build every time.

That said, I like the suggestion that PO be for Big Guys only. That would be fun.

Or my personal favorite nerf that requires imagination and I think pretty much everyone hates:
Make PO cause a turnover on doubles. Ref sees something that is too rough (but not enough to throw the bum out) and whistles the play dead. Then PO is still a really useful skill, but it becomes interesting. Do you blitz with your clawpomber first action? Do you pile on with him? How many PO do you want on the team?

I like this idea because you can still do whatever you want, but the teams that just spam PO are the ones that get punished, and it becomes an interesting tactical choice rather than mindless dice. Plus it also makes for a better skill on Big Guys because you kind of expect them to cause turnovers anyway.

I'd also change Sneaky Git to work like PO for fouls. Get caught? RR it, you're sneaky! Fail to break? Kick him again but maybe get caught because you fell on top of him. Then Sneaky git also gets to be an interesting skill.

EDIT: Ninja'd somewhat by Garion. That's basically my point: people aren't really fighting elves now, except 35% of the time when the dice are hot.

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Last edited by happygrue on Jan 30, 2015 - 17:45; edited 2 times in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 17:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
JimmyFantastic wrote:
But at the moment T/C-pomb keeps them in check somewhat. You can't change things and expect them to not have a knock on effect.


I have to disagree with you here. If PO gets removed from the game all together (or gets nerfed big time) then everyone takes more tackle and a lot quicker (like in lrb4), this seriously hurts elves. I think PO actually benefits the pointy ears more than anyone else other than super mega CPOMB chaos and nurgz.

Elves gonna elf regardless PO getting nerfed will not benefit them though.


Jimmy is right here as usual. Wink

It is not just about CPOMBers taking tackle as their 5th skill. It is blitzers, wights etc who can be tackle-POMBers by their third.

Of course there will be a knock on. We just don't know exactly what it will be.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 17:18 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Garion wrote:
JimmyFantastic wrote:
But at the moment T/C-pomb keeps them in check somewhat. You can't change things and expect them to not have a knock on effect.


I have to disagree with you here. If PO gets removed from the game all together (or gets nerfed big time) then everyone takes more tackle and a lot quicker (like in lrb4), this seriously hurts elves. I think PO actually benefits the pointy ears more than anyone else other than super mega CPOMB chaos and nurgz.

Elves gonna elf regardless PO getting nerfed will not benefit them though.


Jimmy is right here as usual. Wink

It is not just about CPOMBers taking tackle as their 5th skill. It is blitzers, wights etc who can be tackle-POMBers by their third.

Of course there will be a knock on. We just don't know exactly what it will be.


But where elves excel in a TT and league environment is those first 20 games, first 2 seasons they can dominate by quickly getting bloded up or even just dodge, even opponents with tackle as 2nd skill is a huge difference for them to face. Getting to 16 spp is fairly quick and easy getting to the next skill takes a bit of time.

Sure PO removes players, but for me fast agile teams benefit from tackle being knocked down the pecking order of skills and also from opposing players lying prone from Piling On.

happygrue gets it.

But all of this will be impossible to prove either way, its just what my gut tells me. Even if trialled there are too many variables etc....

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 17:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I think I agree Garion. A good adjustment for piling on, would I think, roughly leave the win percentages unaltered (which is I think right), it would try alter how much fun games are (which I also think is right) and the psychological desire to play more races.

Most of the time it is easier for the dodging teams to beat straight up clawmpomb than a balanced team. But for me that's almost as boring as losing to the straight up clawpomb. The issue is not with the win/loss or even the casualties, it's the nature of them.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 17:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
koadah wrote:
Garion wrote:
JimmyFantastic wrote:
But at the moment T/C-pomb keeps them in check somewhat. You can't change things and expect them to not have a knock on effect.


I have to disagree with you here. If PO gets removed from the game all together (or gets nerfed big time) then everyone takes more tackle and a lot quicker (like in lrb4), this seriously hurts elves. I think PO actually benefits the pointy ears more than anyone else other than super mega CPOMB chaos and nurgz.

Elves gonna elf regardless PO getting nerfed will not benefit them though.


Jimmy is right here as usual. Wink

It is not just about CPOMBers taking tackle as their 5th skill. It is blitzers, wights etc who can be tackle-POMBers by their third.

Of course there will be a knock on. We just don't know exactly what it will be.


But where elves excel in a TT and league environment is those first 20 games, first 2 seasons they can dominate by quickly getting bloded up or even just dodge, even opponents with tackle as 2nd skill is a huge difference for them to face. Getting to 16 spp is fairly quick and easy getting to the next skill takes a bit of time.

Sure PO removes players, but for me fast agile teams benefit from tackle being knocked down the pecking order of skills and also from opposing players lying prone from Piling On.

happygrue gets it.

But all of this will be impossible to prove either way, its just what my gut tells me. Even if trialled there are too many variables etc....


Ah right. Pointless argument about different things. Pick the nerf to suit your environment. Don't try to apply the same nerf to everything.

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Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 17:50 Reply with quote Back to top

What's all this silly talk about Elves winning too much?

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JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 17:55 Reply with quote Back to top

All I meant was that if you were to reduce attrition(which you would do by nerfing PO or Claw in any way) there would be consequences. People tend to ignore this.
TCPomb certainly keeps the TV of the Elfs down, please don't act like nerfing PO or Claw wouldn't lead to less attrition.
Also please don't act like any of the CPOMB whining has anything to do with win%.
Any solid fix I would propose would take it into account, but that's only cos I'm fantastic and always right Smile

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NerdBird



Joined: Apr 08, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 18:12 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
All I meant was that if you were to reduce attrition(which you would do by nerfing PO or Claw in any way) there would be consequences. People tend to ignore this.
TCPomb certainly keeps the TV of the Elfs down, please don't act like nerfing PO or Claw wouldn't lead to less attrition.
Also please don't act like any of the CPOMB whining has anything to do with win%.
My fix would consider it, but that's only cos I'm fantastic and always right Smile


Explain to me how claw keeps woodies, pelfs and zon TV down?

TPOMB keeps those teams TV down. I see a lot of teams that take CLAW, Mighty Blow, Block, Piling On as their first 4. Unless of course they get a Stat increase and then they take that. Or a doubles, dodge. So you see very little tackle on those teams. Yes those teams keep Dark Elfs and High Elfs trimmed a bit but they are more or less designed to annihilate Dwarfs and Orcs.

Taking Claw for a chaos team against woodies or Amazons on say 6 players is 120 TV wasted. We are almost looking at a wizard for a skill that does nothing to them.
JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 18:14 Reply with quote Back to top

You tell me. You are the one whining in a blog about how you can't keep your team alive in the box..

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2015 - 18:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I see the 3 week no post ban was lifted and coaches are now flooding back in to once again resume the ancient grudge on how to solve CPOMB.

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