Deniz87
Joined: Aug 06, 2011
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 Posted:
Jan 30, 2015 - 15:03 |
 
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Secret League is a good start of creativity and indipendence |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | mister__joshua wrote: | | @xnoelx: I know you already know this, but it's totally different to a world like Middle Earth. That world was written to tell a story, a great story, and then it was finished. |
Is it such a different world? The falling out of Elves and Dwarfs? The dark power at the edge of the civilized realm? Humans being the central race and elves being in the woods and the Dwarfs in the mountains.
We've discussed this recently. Warhammer was based on figures for D&D, and D&D was done on the LOTR theme.
| mister__joshua wrote: | For me you can't have a world like Warhammer where all these cool and interesting things have happened in the past (humans becoming gods, the splitting of the elves, the war of the beard etc.) but then say that for the time that you the player gets to play in it, nothing changes. It's a living world as the setting for a game, it should be constantly changing, moving and evolving. I think the last interesting thing they did was kill Nagash way back when.
Still, maybe static was the wrong word. Maybe I'm looking for... stale. It's not had any interesting changes or developments for aeons. I really think this shake-up may be just what it needs. |
Yeah for me, I totally disagree with all of this, why can't you stay static? The idea was that it was meant to be static. A sort of period in time where the balance was perfect, after this it would spiral and you'd start to see races disappearing. |
No, you misunderstand me. I aren't arguing that Middle Earth and Warhammer are different. Clearly Middle Earth is the primary influence for Warhammer. I'm saying that by necessity a 'game world' needs to be different to a 'literary world', or at least a good one should be.
A literary world is written for one purpose - to create a rich background for a story that you're telling. A game world is written to give other people a place to tell stories over and over again. In literature the author controls the world, and so can change anything they want. This isn't the same in a game, so the controllers of the world need to move it along to keep it fresh and interesting. I don't believe that of Tolkien had written a story based years after LotR that the world would be the same, and that the story he was writing would have no impact on it. Good stories (well, large scale fantasy ones) impact the world.
To illustrate my point, I'm going to take Shadowrun as an example (only because that's a game I play and world I know). Over 5 editions the world of Shadowrun has changed completely, and each edition of the game had with it a story arc that changed the whole setting. The emergence of AI, the rising of Dragons, the fall of Megacorps. Each edition brought interesting changes to the world. New things to explore. Compare that to 8 editions of Warhammer over the course of which nothing has really changed, the status-quo tediously maintained.
As a game setting I'm much prefer to see the rise and fall of races and characters, changes in the world etc than I would the same sides trotted out again with a new unit. I play Bretonnians and we're well overdue a new book. If instead a large world even had wiped out Bretonnia, or changed it into something different then that would be fun and interesting, and I'd much prefer that to just being left and ignored for 3 editions. |
Last edited by mister__joshua on %b %30, %2015 - %15:%Jan; edited 2 times in total |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 30, 2015 - 15:49 |
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| The_Great_Gobbo wrote: | | E.G: GW says Dwarfs get wiped out, do we follow along with this or not? |
CD no longer exists anyway, right? |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jan 30, 2015 - 16:07 |
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That is a good start. No dorfs? Shave all menz! |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 30, 2015 - 16:08 |
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| Roland wrote: | | The_Great_Gobbo wrote: | | E.G: GW says Dwarfs get wiped out, do we follow along with this or not? |
CD no longer exists anyway, right? |
No, they exist. Others have been less fortunate. |
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Wotfudboy
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 30, 2015 - 16:19 |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jan 30, 2015 - 16:30 |
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| mister__joshua wrote: | | No, you misunderstand me. I aren't arguing that Middle Earth and Warhammer are different. Clearly Middle Earth is the primary influence for Warhammer. I'm saying that by necessity a 'game world' needs to be different to a 'literary world', or at least a good one should be. |
Why does it? Couldn't you develop a good wargame from the literature of LOTR? In fact in recent times, this has been GWs best selling wargame.
Warhammer has been very clever in that it's taken tech levels from 1500 years or so, where in LOTR it's slightly hampered with a tech level that doesn't allow much troop variation. However in reality, a more authentic setting.
However to make a good wargame it's all there. The novels allow you to delve deeper and help with the immersion.
| Quote: | | A literary world is written for one purpose - to create a rich background for a story that you're telling. A game world is written to give other people a place to tell stories over and over again. In literature the author controls the world, and so can change anything they want. This isn't the same in a game, so the controllers of the world need to move it along to keep it fresh and interesting. I don't believe that of Tolkien had written a story based years after LotR that the world would be the same, and that the story he was writing would have no impact on it. Good stories (well, large scale fantasy ones) impact the world. |
Why do they have to move things a long? From 1st to 6th edition Warhammer didn't move a long at all. Same with 40k in the same time period. 'Moving things along' is a newish concept for Warhammer.
In fact there's more moving along in LOTR. This went through 3 ages through a variety of books. It stopped at the 4th age, as that was the end of what we know. What you have with Warhammer is a similar thing. We have history to this point, at this point it starts to devolve. With what we have, what do you think happens afterwards? Dwarfs have had it, that's for sure. Same with Lizardmen. Elves will become more and more reclusive and eventually will disappear. The Empire will become darker, more unified, until you have 2 sides. Good vs Chaos. Eventually Chaos wins. It gets boring after this point, that's why it didn't move along. We are at the peak. The idea of moving it on, always seemed stupid, as you lose the status quo.
Warhammer and LOTR are kind of role reversals. One started as a game and moved to novels the other vice versa. They meet somewhere in the middle with role playing. Both have been pretty successful in all avenues. If somebody released a good wargame based on LOTR (I was excited before I found out it became a skirmish game) I know I'd be interested.
| mister__joshua wrote: | | To illustrate my point, I'm going to take Shadowrun as an example (only because that's a game I play and world I know). Over 5 editions the world of Shadowrun has changed completely, and each edition of the game had with it a story arc that changed the whole setting. The emergence of AI, the rising of Dragons, the fall of Megacorps. Each edition brought interesting changes to the world. New things to explore. Compare that to 8 editions of Warhammer over the course of which nothing has really changed, the status-quo tediously maintained. |
Well I think here, it's clear we totally disagree on this point. I know shadowrun fairly well, I love a lot of the novels. I also know battletech and moving things a long there, has not been good. They could have quite easily kept the same time line and expanded the area to include clans.
Also for shadowrun I don't think it's been that great. What's the point in changing a world that is for roleplaying? You're the creator after all. And surely there's and endless supply for missions?
FASA (or whoever runs these games now) have done a bad job in my opinion. Making things far too complex and not unified.
For me this a good reason why you shouldn't move the timeline on. So yeah it's clear we don't agree on this point.
The rise and fall will generally mean the more colourful, weak, the ones you cheer on will lose out. The mega powerful will win, the underdog will fall.
I mean if they keep Dwarfs and Elves as races of power (without them, that's a serious knock to the generic fantasy setting) they'll need some really creative fluff to back that up. And of late, that's been seriously lacking.
So for me; Stupid idea, bound to have floors, likely to have unbelievable aspects and will be set in a less romantic era. This isn't creating a fresh world how they like, this is recreating a world that is very established. I really believe they're barking up the wrong tree. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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Well in response to both of your Why questions, it's simply my opinion.
As a group we played Cyberpunk for many years. Over the course of this time we advanced from the setting start point (2020) until around 2023-24 and then reset it and started over. We've played their 'world ending' Corporate War adventure path 3 times. This story highlights well both of our points. We grew a little tired of the repeat setting (even though as an RPG we obviously made up our own stuff and changed things). When 3rd edition was announced after 10 years we got excited. When it turned out to be crap we stopped playing altogether and moved on to different games. If they'd never re-booted the world then we'd probably still play occasionally (the risk you mentioned). If they're re-booted it well then we'd currently still play it exclusively. As it is Shadowrun has filled that gap in recent years for us.
Still, we disagree on the main point. I think it is a good move and look forward to reading about it. I think it's quite exciting. I feel the re-boot is borne out of necessity though, with a failing business model being the primary motivator. In this it could all go wrong. |
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"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jan 30, 2015 - 17:03 |
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Change is change. Everybody fear it, and everybody wants it. Both at the same time. I think it is pointless discussing if they do it in a good or bad way. Lets see when it is published.
I can see more point at discussing how it could be done rather than worrying about it. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jan 30, 2015 - 17:06 |
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I think Shadowrun is a great universe. One thing I really loved about it, was the 1990s feel about the future. Retro-future. The razor look, metalic lense glasses, neon colour baggy clothes, multi coloured mohicans, overly exotic cars. Japanese as an uber power and a major influence on the English language. It's all fantastic to me, and they burnt it by moving on.
I think with the novels there's masses of potential, some of those novels were really awesome. Lot's of themes there to take and make an RPG. You know I think I'm in the wrong job, I should be creating stuff for games like Shadowrun.....
I think for us and BB, moving on won't harm us much. Of course it's going to get darker and more desperate. So the chances of a major sport or past time becomes less believable. However, I think there's potential for a separate division...or mixed race rosters. We'll see. |
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The_Great_Gobbo
Joined: Aug 04, 2014
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Jan 30, 2015 - 17:14 |
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Gentelmen, this isn't a forum post arguing the merits of what GW plans to do with the Warhammer lore, but what we as Blood Bowl players and Fumbblers intend to do about it.
Now for many people the answer is nothing, the background is fine as it is lets keep on going as we are but I personally see an opportunity to take the Blood Bowl lore and do something new and interesting with it. Harvestmouse made the point that why get rid of something that works fine as it is, well my answer would be because GW are killing it for right or wrong. Do us fluff enthusiasts move along with this or do something independent?
If as a community we can take ownership of the rules of the game (LRB + CRB) why not take this opportunity to take ownership of the fluff as well? |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jan 30, 2015 - 17:30 |
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It's all related Gobbo. Josh wants to move in on, I.....well I did move it on in my fluff, but to get back to somewhere near the original premise.
My view is, that once you reach that perfect point in history. The point where all the races are at a good point, you shouldn't move it on. STOP. So that's what we are debating (not arguing). Should they move it on? Should we move it on?
I think that BB fluff is on enough of a side track that it wouldn't be affected by this new Warhammer fluff (unless you want it to).
Remember how BB stuff starts. They're at war, and the world is continually at war. This large battle that is taking place is stopped because they found the buried chamber of Nuffle.
So, just before this point the fluff was the same. Our BB universe is somewhere in the near future to Warhammer. Wars are settled on the BB field (totally/partially? that's up to you to decided) however on thing is clear; End of times is not something that would affect the BB universe. They're too busy playing or watching blood bowl to bring an end to the universe.
Well who did you give the fluff to? You can give it to me if you like? I believe I am the only one in the BB world who should inherit it. However like Galadriel, you'd replace a dark evil prince with a beautiful queen who meant well, but all would tremble with terror.
After me, I wouldn't trust anybody with it. We could I guess work together, but who knows what we'd do with it?! However if we leave it in the universe we know, and don't move on, we have a staple. Everything has to revolve around that staple and it can't (or shouldn't) get too out of control. Remove that staple though, and their be pages and races flying about everywhere.
Bringing in new things I think is fine, but it should be tied into the Warhammer universe as we know it. New races even, but tie it in to what we know. That's important for the realism. |
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Deniz87
Joined: Aug 06, 2011
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Jan 30, 2015 - 17:53 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | Too many coaches have little idea or care about the world it's set in. Actually they do care, but they don't realise it. |
I can say for example that some of my teams are "coherent" with the warhammer fluff here and some others come from a completely different world. So I don't always care about it (but I do care about the back story,etc. of my temas).
For me,BB could also be set in a totally different world...it doesn't change much... except for my khemri teams (I love Tomb Kings and their land,story....). |
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The_Great_Gobbo
Joined: Aug 04, 2014
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| Posted:
Jan 30, 2015 - 17:55 |
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IF we agree as a community to own the fluff I would like to see a committee of around 5 people elected to decide the lore as adhered to by Fumbbl. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jan 30, 2015 - 17:59 |
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Well I think that's good, and we should explore that. The game mechanics don't necessarily need to be tied to the warhammer world. There's a whole host of avenues to explore.
There was a lot of this on BB 5 or 6 years ago. There was a star wars, speed ball, football and LOTR league. Only OBBA the football league has survived and is now one of the premier leagues on fumbbl.
My message is yes, go for it. Develop what you want. However I don't think we should try to make it canon. Let's stay where we are, with what we have.
If/when we get a client that we can increase the size, well then that opens up masses of avenues. Gameboy sprites are around 2.5 times bigger than our icons and with mobile phones, we have sprites again. A client that scales up to double the size, can accommodate these style sprites. Then you have masses of games you can play.
I have the One Piece sprites and have made rules. Marvel Super heroes, Star Wars, Pokemon, Super Mario vs Sonic, Star Trek, Toy Story and on and on and on.
It's all there if you're creative enough. |
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