ahalfling
Joined: Aug 16, 2008
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 Posted:
Feb 27, 2015 - 01:40 |
 
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Yeah, I don't understand that reasoning at ALL. A Norse lineman at 50k for 6/3/3/7 block is one of the great bargains of the Blood Bowl world. A Norse linemen at 80k for 6/3/3/8 block is a human lineman, only more expensive. You into paying a premium for the right to have a human lineman? Or paying 90k for what is basically a rookie dark elf lino on a pro elf team?
As for this... would you pay 150k for an 8/3/3/9 player with frenzy, claw and regeneration? Maybe if you were dwarves or something, but gnerally that is a bad deal. So why would you make your guy into that player AND use up a skill slot?
For that matter, not having block or dodge is going to make your wolf a lot more vulnerable than having 8 armor as opposed to 9. The more the wolf falls down, the more danger he's in... the scenarios where that extra point of AV is the difference between breaking and not breaking his armor are going to be very rare... maybe one instance of broken armor every 5 games, if that. And given that the wolf regenerates anyway, breaking armor is not even that big a risk.
Block or dodge will keep him alive, AND keep him up, AND make him better at hitting (block) or moving (dodge). And you have to weigh how much that is worth vs. how much 9 MA is worth, but it's clearly worth more than ticking his armor up one point. |
_________________
Beat Claw, Play AV7
(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.) |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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Feb 27, 2015 - 02:51 |
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| Elijah wrote: | | Why you think AV is not worthy? Isn't survivability a good thing for such an expensive player, plus, doesn't it assure it will be able to become stronger before being killed? |
Not as a first skill*, and usually not ever.
And the real reason is that you don't want to protect a player that has no skills to add to the team, or even no special skills.
Early on, you want a skill that will help the player help the team, and all an early AV does is keep a no-skill player on the field. The cost of that player ~is~ a consideration, but... not enough of one, not when that cost is now +30k, he has nothing but starting skills, ~and~ all future skills are that much further away!
+AV is a decent 5th or 6th skill for a player that has +Stat and/or Doubles skills, someone who is actually worth protecting - but even then, only if there is no other skill that makes him do his job better.
(* There are exceptions - usually low AV who will get hit, like Norse Linos, AV 7 and gonna get hit. Or occasionally road blocks - AV 10 Stand Firm St 5 MB is not an attractive target [i](except for Claws).
Even on Skinks... meh, better to take +MA, at least early. I took +AV as a 3rd skill on a DTss'er, but only b/c it's his job to mark and get hit. Happy w/ that one.)[/i]
| Elijah wrote: | | Also, not taking AV, then, is it worthy to take MA over block or dodge? (since first skill I'll probably would pick block) |
Good rule is to always take +MA on your fastest player(s). MA 9 Frenzy is scary stuff, delivering those claws anywhere on the field.
It ~would~ be a lot better if it were the 3rd skill, once he had Blodge, so it ~is~ a risk to take it now and have to wait 'til 31 spp for Blodge (or longer if +Stat or Doubles!), but a fast player is usually worth the trouble to keep him safe. (But DO take that trouble!)
+MA on slower players, like linos... meh. Not as a first skill, certainly. Moving fast is not their job, not when you already have faster players who can without a +30k bump and no active skill to show for it.  |
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Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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Feb 27, 2015 - 03:00 |
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| ahalfling wrote: | | Yeah, I don't understand that reasoning at ALL. A Norse lineman at 50k for 6/3/3/7 block is one of the great bargains of the Blood Bowl world. A Norse linemen at 80k for 6/3/3/8 block is a human lineman, only more expensive... |
But while a Human or DElf team would see that as expensive, a Norse team does not, b/c they don't have other players with that same ability - to last on the LoS.
When armour is breaking ~42% of the time, and 58% v. MB, having a player who will be around after the 1st turn of the drive is something that you would be willing to pay just a little extra for.
Esp when most other normal skills just don't help them do their job that much better - "block". Tackle, Fendr - and that's about it. :/ |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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ahalfling
Joined: Aug 16, 2008
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Feb 27, 2015 - 04:11 |
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I've played a lot of Norse, more than any other race -- and first of all, Norse are more cash-intensive than humans. 2 ulfs + 2 berserkers = 40k more than 4 human blitzers, everyone takes 2 Norse catchers, and the rerolls are more expensive. So are the big guys, if you take them.
Second, the difference between AV8 and AV7 is barely visible to the naked eye, even if you're not facing claws. Meanwhile, the difference between an AV8 Norse lineman and two Norse linemen is a grand total of 20k. What is this "last" you're talking about? They're still way more durable than anything without block... and if you lose one, just bring in the other one you were able to carry because you weren't trying to strap armor on a punching bag. |
_________________
Beat Claw, Play AV7
(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.) |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Feb 27, 2015 - 04:42 |
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| ahalfling wrote: | | Yeah, I don't understand that reasoning at ALL. A Norse lineman at 50k for 6/3/3/7 block is one of the great bargains of the Blood Bowl world. A Norse linemen at 80k for 6/3/3/8 block is a human lineman, only more expensive. You into paying a premium for the right to have a human lineman? Or paying 90k for what is basically a rookie dark elf lino on a pro elf team? |
Oh, crap, I didn't realize you can take Human Linemen on Norse teams now. Or DElf linos for Pros. I shall have to re-read the rulebook. (I'll let Smeat make the high-road response.)
In the meantime though, a Norse player doesn't give up much by not taking a General skill -- Fend, Tackle... meh. And Elf linos all die at the same rate with only 1 skill no matter what they take. Might as well reduce by ONE THIRD the chances they won't be around for the next EIGHT TURNS. In my view, a Norse or Elf (or Skaven, or Woodie) team with a full complement by halftime is usually a good bet to win or tie the match.
I don't doubt you're a good Norse coach, but your argument makes only half-sense. You're talking TV efficiency. I'm talking winning the half on defense. I couldn't care less how many players I have on the bench if my team is down 3 by Turn 1. AV8 for all 3 LOS would reduce this number to 2 at a cost of 90k. So for 90k I get an extra player on-pitch for more turns. Can this make a 90k difference in a game? I imagine it could, since if you argue that Norse must dish out damage before it gets dished to them, you are implicitly arguing that staying on-pitch is worth more to Norse than it is to other teams.
Elves -- who knows. My Elf-fu is extremely weak on Fumbbl, despite being successful with them in TT. Can't keep them alive. Trying this idea to see if it makes a difference. |
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ahalfling
Joined: Aug 16, 2008
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Feb 27, 2015 - 06:53 |
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I just don't think "sometimes this insignificant lineman's armor gets broken because the other guy happened to roll exactly an 8" justifies almost doubling that lineman's cost. So his armor gets broken. So what? You're not "winning the half on defense" because you have a lineman, especially because you're probably facing an opponent who has brought a team that can actually do more things. You might win the lying-on-the-ground battle.
(And does someone WANT human linemen? If you had a team that could take either Norse linemen or human linemen, skeletons-or-zombies style, most coaches wouldn't opt for even one human lino. Linemen are a strength for the Norse and a weakness for the humans.)
And I don't "argue that Norse must dish out damage before it gets dished to them." That's a weak argument in my opinion. Norse's advantage is that they're stronger than any fast team and faster than any strong team -- like reverse lizardmen, with every player being competent and few being THAT great at any given specialty. (The ulfs > sauri, clearly.) Or like more dynamic humans, really. If you stay out of the scrum against most strong teams, you match up really well man to man, and you can hit elves without getting especially outrun by them.
If we're min-maxing, not saying I condone it, you're either giving one lineman kick and firing any other ones who don't roll doubles, or you're loading up on 70k dirty players. Taking AV is just a way to play down TV without getting inducements, and if you do that, it doesn't matter that your lineman gets up a tiny bit more often. He's going to get up to get hit again. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Feb 27, 2015 - 06:54 |
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Hey, I'm giving kick to my tackle AV norse lino next skill up! Get out of my mind! |
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Heff
Joined: Dec 24, 2012
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Feb 27, 2015 - 07:33 |
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I have taken av on a mino, but mainly so another player needs to be assigned to get that foul to 6+ when it inevitably falls over. Probably a mistake, on a player with regen and no Loner? nah. take the move, speed kills. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Feb 27, 2015 - 07:35 |
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Sprint and SS make that MA9 OTTD fuel. |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Feb 27, 2015 - 10:09 |
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it's kind of sad that +AV is so bad in this game  |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Feb 27, 2015 - 12:10 |
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speed wins games, take +ma |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Feb 27, 2015 - 12:46 |
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This Human Lineman vs Norse Lineman debate on the side is interesting.
Personally I have come to the conclusion that in CRP the Norse Lineman is superior.
Standing up is less safe than it used to be and laying down is safer.
Who wants to have to earn spps to get the #1 most powerful skill in the game... BLOCK.
Your AV7 makes you immune to Claw and who fears being Fouled?
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In LRB4 that AV8 was so much more useful for staying on the pitch.
Developing and maintaining a BENCH was easier and even a good strategy.
The Human Roster was not changed in CRP... but the RULES changes nerfed Humans more thn any other Tier 1 team imo.
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I used to love taking on whoever offered my Humans a game in LRB4.
In CRP I almost never want to play against anyone with my Humans. |
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CanvasBack
Joined: Jan 15, 2007
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Feb 27, 2015 - 17:31 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | In LRB4 that AV8 was so much more useful for staying on the pitch.
The Human Roster was not changed in CRP... but the RULES changes nerfed Humans more thn any other Tier 1 team imo.
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Ummm, so you never played against the claw/razor sharp claw combo then....
Humans a Tier 1 team? What? You must be joking right? They're a good team and still are but at high TV they have a HARD time hanging with elves and a harder time hanging with the truly bash teams (Killer Chaos, Nurgle, Orcs...) |
_________________
"When you have shot and killed a man you have in some measure clarified your attitude toward him. You have given a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or worse you have acted decisively. In a way, the next move is up to him." R.A. Lafferty |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Feb 27, 2015 - 20:27 |
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I played against everything in LRB4. The difficult to obtain 2 Doubles Combo of Claw Razor Sharp Claws Combo was not a glaring issue. Needing 2 Doubles to take it made it rare enough. And I found it easy to deal with.
STEP 1 only give them something of little value to hit on turn 1.
STEP 2 get that player on the ground.
STEP 3 Gang Foul it to DEATH or at least into the KO Box.
I didn't have any real trouble hanging with Elves at High TV with Humans. I always felt like I would tear those Elves into pieces and beat them late in the game as long as I protected the Ball. But then... I actually used the Elf Killing Combo of Block, Tackle and Mighty Blow to rip them apart.
Nurgle and Orcs I tied down with AV8 Linemen back when than Armour was useful. Man-marking the BOBs with a team full of Linemen with Block and a useful AV. I found I had an advantage Blitzer vs Blitzer and Thrower vs Thrower and Catcher vs slow Orc Lineman. Same goes for Nurgle as long as I could keep those Tentacles at bay.
I found Chaos to be a piece of cake to tie down with man-marking to steal their use of Horns from them with a full team of Linemen with Block. If the AV8 held and it often did I WON. If the AV8 didn't hold I had a bench to hold on for the TIE.
I used to salivate in anticipation of the reverse cherry picking I was doing by taking on teams that thought THEY were the superior roster using my choice tactics. I had the superior roster. I could play the game their way when I had to and turn it around at the right moment to make them play my way for a few turns. (my way as determined by making them do something they don't prefer to do)
Now... playing a positional, take the punch in the face and get back up style of playing Humans is SUICIDE. You LOSE and your team gets DESTROYED (making it so hard to maintain all the specialists you need to compete with each style of play for opponent).
Gangfouling is not a solid tactic to combat the Killers anymore. There are so many more teams with MULITPLE killers and even if you take 1 out 2 more take his place within a few games.
Meanwhile every time I add a Guard or a player with Tackle or a build up my Linemen to protect themselves with Block I see them cut back down. There goes the Guard I needed to compete with the Strength teams. There goes the Tackle I needed to compete with the Elves.
HUMANS were TIER 1 in LRB4. In CRP... not even close. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Feb 27, 2015 - 20:48 |
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I was really worried when I thought I stumbled over a dead horse today but it turned out it was a few tattered pages from LRB4. |
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