| Poll |
| DE Runner rolls doubles for his first skill, what would you take? |
| Guard: elves always need Guard! |
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30% |
[ 7 ] |
| Dodge: don't slow his development, he'll just die before you get Dodge/Pass/Block/NoS |
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26% |
[ 6 ] |
| Other (explain below) |
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17% |
[ 4 ] |
| Strong Arm or Pie |
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26% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 23 |
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w8lifter
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
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 Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 04:21 |
 
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I agree with the anti-Runner crowd. Sack him and save the TV. But if are going to kepp him, I would give him MB and try to turn him into a safety as that AV7 is going to make it tough to keep him around near the LOS. |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 04:47 |
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| El_Jairo wrote: | | What about Dump-Off Smeat? Isn't that worth 20k? |
Answered at length and by coaches better than myself in that other thread I linked, above.
The short answer is "No, without other skills DO is too unreliable to be of much value, and to give a Runner those necessary skills is to steal that spp from other, better players, and for a tactic that is rarely useful".
| C3I2 wrote: | | Duh, the reason to take MB is not to use MB (he has no block) but that the combo MB+PO is so strong, and so hard to get on elf teams... MB means you win games 10-20 games from now. |
You go ahead and invest 31 spp in an AV 7, hoping to build a killer. If they aren't simply killed outright in the process, wasting those spp, they won't be helping anyone until that hoped-for day, and are still highly vulnerable if they ever do get there. And then your "win future games" theory goes "sploosh".
Dropping those same spp on a Blitzer will build them up to help the entire team, and they will last better, and they WILL help you win both now and then. |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:12 |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:28 |
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So fun that Smeat prefers to pick Guard.... that means you put an Av7 in without block and dodge in contact with lots of units standing up. |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:30 |
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<sigh>
So fun that C312 still doesn't understand that getting him retired from the team sooner than later is the point - even tho' I said exactly that, and repeatedly.
/out |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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Jiiiiim
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:40 |
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I've always built the runners to try and open up a reliable passing dimension to the delves cos my running games can get pretty bogged down. Out of the available doubles, strong arm is the only one that furthers that aim. If you just want someone who can reliably hurl the ball to someone when he's getting punched, maybe stand firm would help with that, lowers the chance of interceptions.
But all things considered, you'd rather take those doubles as a 4th/5th skill than a 1st |
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El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 14:08 |
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| Smeat wrote: | | El_Jairo wrote: | | What about Dump-Off Smeat? Isn't that worth 20k? |
Answered at length and by coaches better than myself in that other thread I linked, above.
The short answer is "No, without other skills DO is too unreliable to be of much value, and to give a Runner those necessary skills is to steal that spp from other, better players, and for a tactic that is rarely useful".
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I'm reading up on this article but it seems much more of a personal preference to me. I see Licker making points about cost increase of 20k over a lineman, but as far as I see you have to pay 10k for Dump-Off and access to passing skills. As in my book +MA and -AV equalize each-other.
The fact that Dump-off is not a skill you should use plenty in a game doesn't mean it is not worth 20k.
The skill let's you make a pass action during the oppositions turn. If I'm right, only Pass Block lets you take an action during the opponents turn, but only on a pass.
Dump-Off works on all blocks on you ball carrier.
Furthermore I see a lot of arguments based on "if" and "should". First I do not agree that Dark Elves have enough movement with 6x MA 7 players and I don't see why elves will be more able to protect their ball carrier than any other race. If you suffer a Turn-Over you can find yourself in a bad situation.
I simply like skills that cover my back when the dice let me down.
Funny thing is that the biggest argument hinges on AV7 but I have the impression the same coaches advocate to take +MA over +AV on AV7 players, weird logic.
If a player brings very useful skills to the team I do prefer AV over MA as the first keeps those skills on the pitch and less stunned, which outweighs the argument of having higher reach on that player.
But sure, agree to disagree, and my main playground isn't [R] so I guess this is where the disagreement comes from. |
_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 14:11 |
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| Smeat wrote: | <sigh>
So fun that C312 still doesn't understand that getting him retired from the team sooner than later is the point - even tho' I said exactly that, and repeatedly.
/out |
You mean coaches cant chose to fire players anymore? |
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NickNutria
Joined: Jul 25, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 14:15 |
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A runner in my opinion is a poor thrower he lacks pass, the only skill that would make sense on a double would be strong arm, you could get pass and other throwings skills later. |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 14:40 |
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| NickNutria wrote: | | A runner in my opinion is a poor thrower he lacks pass, the only skill that would make sense on a double would be strong arm, you could get pass and other throwings skills later. |
Actually, any runner that picks strong arm (and not pass, or accurate) is bound to end up like this:
https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=9158465
Note that he has one more skill to pick, a double no less.... and I have yet to continue to play the team due to that. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 15:16 |
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Okay, so the DE runner question again. Some confusion about why most experienced players don't bother with him, so let's try to clear things up. Here's why DE don't need a runner...
There aren't a lot off teams that wouldn't want a 7/3/4/7 ball carrier, but unfortunately this player plays on one of the only teams that don't. This is a side with 6 other AG4 MA7 guys, and every one of them is at least as capable a carrier as the runner. You can play rule of 5 or ignore it, but a team with 6 blodge blitzers doesn't need a dedicated ball handler, especially when one of those 6 is probably going to get a stat at some point, and become a much better option than the runner.
These are elves. You're going to develop an AG5 leaper at some point, who immediately turns your runner into a waste of a roster spot. Dump Off is a fun little trick, but at the end of the day, proper positioning and stat freak leapers make the runner an obsolete waste of tv.
Oh, and he's AV7, so you can either bench him on defense, hide him in your 5 instead of one of your real players, or leave him open to mighty blow. All bad. |
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kilinrax
Joined: Jan 12, 2015
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 16:17 |
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Thanks everyone for taking the time to comment.
I agree that the runner is sub-optimal (+MA for -AV is a bad trade, DO is a 2nd-tier skill at best). That said, having paid for him, I'm not going to fire him; I'm going to try to use him and not replace him if/when he dies. My winnings will go on witches and RRs first, and by then I should have a +AG player to turn into a ball carrier instead.
Given so many of you more experienced coaches don't use the position at all, I'm curious as to why there isn't more talk about improving him (could he be improved?). Is the general feeling that in the time since CRP all such discussions are done to death and people are sick of them? I say this aware that I'm someone new to FUMBBL after years away from TT BB and some Cyanide in the interim (which is just a toy in comparison). |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 16:23 |
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As long as
- 4 blitzers are available
- Rule of 5 makes more sense than not
There wont be much runner.
Runner is not a bad player. Just happens to be on a great roster. |
_________________
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 16:30 |
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Runner can be fun for fluff reasons, but that's about it.
MA7 is always nice, but usually only when it's your fastest player (like a Norse runner, though they are good for other reasons anyway, or a dwarf runner at MA6). Passing access is mostly worthless for every team, but incredibly moreso for teams with 50k rerolls.
Look, if you want to build a passing game then take a runner and give him pass and accurate and whatever else suits your fancy.
That's a fluff player though, he doesn't actually hold his weight TV wise, and don't kid yourself that AV7 isn't an issue, it's already unfortunate for the witches, but at least the witches provide a different dimension (mobile frenzy) than does a runner. Yes, you can take frenzy on someone else, but a witch is cost effective because of dodge/jumpup/frenzy leaving a lot of room for other core skills you would also like.
The runner provides only one skill of dubious quality (these aren't nerves of steel pro elf catchers) and access to P which is of equally dubious quality. |
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kilinrax
Joined: Jan 12, 2015
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 16:53 |
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Is the reasoning for passing access being dubious/worthless that - unless the game is going badly - you're only going to pick up/throw with your dedicated ball carrier rather than a random player a maximum of once a half? So 20kTV getting free rerolls on the 1/6 of those that fail is bad value compared to 50kTV on team RRs that are universally useful?
(assume I'm playing a short-passing game; no strong arm/accurate). |
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