| Poll |
| DE Runner rolls doubles for his first skill, what would you take? |
| Guard: elves always need Guard! |
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30% |
[ 7 ] |
| Dodge: don't slow his development, he'll just die before you get Dodge/Pass/Block/NoS |
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26% |
[ 6 ] |
| Other (explain below) |
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17% |
[ 4 ] |
| Strong Arm or Pie |
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26% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 23 |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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 Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 17:08 |
 
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RRs cant be used on dump-off. Pass can be used on dump-off. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 17:09 |
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You just generally don't want to pass the ball if you don't have to and Passing access...it's in the name! Leader was made for Thro-Ras. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 17:20 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | You just generally don't want to pass the ball if you don't have to and Passing access...it's in the name! Leader was made for Thro-Ras. |
Leader is good for skaven thrower and human thrower too |
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El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 18:19 |
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My view on this is that Leader is great to stock up on RR for low cost.
Runner will cost you 80k, 6 SPP to get to Leader. So you add a TRR and a player for 80k and 2 TD's.
If you want to achieve the same with a regular TRR: 100k for the TRR and 70k for the player.
Which is more than double, sure you don't need to put 2 TD's on a player for it.
So until you have a stat-freak who is better fitted as the ball carrier, I do see a role for the Runner on Dark Elves.
My guess is that the Stat-freak will attract more POMB blitzes and/or boots to the head.
Where does the idea of "rule of 5 come from"? I get that you want to have some linemen protecting you positionals but Blitzers get the Blodge up first, and until Tackle + MB shows up, are ideal players to fit in the screen you run as they are more difficult to knock down and they are better at hitting back. |
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By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 18:36 |
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I feel like there are two closely related "rules of 5"
One for roster management and one for in game kick off setup.
The roster management follows the in game kick off setup though in that you might ask yourself "why bother developing more than 5 players if you can only legitimately protect 5 on kickoff" using a specific defensive setup in any given game at any given moment?
if you go 3-4-4 instead of 3-3-5 at setup the rule of 5 is moot though. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 18:50 |
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The point on leader is not the actual cost of it in terms of money, because money is essentially unlimited.
It's the cost of it in terms of TV. Elfs only pay 50kTV for each rr, and taking it on a P access player saves you 30k in tv which isn't really enough to bother with in my opinion. It gets worse for some teams which don't have good throwers though, because now you are playing a premium for a positional (over a lineman) which eats away another 10-30k (depending on roster) from that initial TV saving.
If you're using a thrower/runner anyway then that is a sunk cost so you can ignore it, but for the DE runner in particular, he is not a necessary piece for any elf team. Compare to Humans and Khemri (some will debate you on Khemri) who have more expensive rrs, but actually useful runner/thrower due to starting with sure hands.
Again, this is all assuming you're trying to optimize your roster and TV management is therefore important to whatever degree you are striving for optimization.
The other side that was asked is about in game tactics. Here you don't want to throw ANY passes EVER. (obvious exceptions for spp farming aside)
Passing should then be only the last ditch effort required to score from an otherwise unfavorable position. Of course some teams will naturally have those situations more often than others, and some flavors of elf (not dark elf) will play with an ag5 thrower waaaaay in the back field out of blitz range just waiting for the right change to pass (1/36 fail) to a waiting catcher with catch (so again 1/36 fail). To do this as safely as possible you need skills like pass/accurate/strong arm/safe throw on your passer, and you need catch at a minium on your catcher, but also skills like nerves of steel and (maybe) diving catch, along with dodge/leap aftwerwards.
That number of skills, which serve only the one play where you need to score eat up a lot of TV quickly, so the teams which should employ that kind of game plan are the teams who start with players who start with some subset of those skills (high elf thrower, the best elf thrower, and pro elf catchers). Otherwise you are sinking a lot of TV into completely one dimensional skills, or if you are ignoring those skills, your success rate at that kind of game plan will suffer.
Now, none of that is to say that elf teams (or skaven and sometimes slann) who don't specialize in those skills can't run a passing game when they have to, it just means that you cannot rely on that passing game the same way, and therefore should strive to learn how to score using other tactics. Not usually cage and bash, but frequently its trying to draw the opposition to one side of the pitch where you can use your greater speed to do a single hand off to someone towards the middle who can then run to the other side out of blitz range entirely, or with a couple other screeners. Of course there are plenty of other ways to run the offense, but it's mostly a running attack, you screen, you keep on moving the ball and a threat or two back and forth (without handoffs other than when you are ready to send your break away). Eventually you hope to secure a position where you can screen off the opposition from half the pitch and shift your screening from being an up/down situation (looking at the fumbbl pitch) to a left/right situation.
All of this requires you to have a really good sense of positioning so that you're not winding up needing a lot of gfis and tricky dodges to set up your positions. But it's also a lot of stress on most defenses, especially for slower teams, especially when they aren't removing your players from the pitch at a rapid pace  |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 18:59 |
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One of the worst places to be in with Elves and Skaven is when you can't differentiate between SPP farming and actual passes you make as part of some sort of grand tactical plan to score a TD - because you take the 2+, 2+ for granted.
I say this as an addict to Passing. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 19:14 |
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Leader is money on delf runner. But I took pass on them many occasion, and it was a fun way of playing. |
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kilinrax
Joined: Jan 12, 2015
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| Posted:
Mar 31, 2015 - 12:05 |
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| licker wrote: | | >complete demolition of the usefulness of the DElf runner, Leader on the DElf runner, or passing as a strategy on non-(pro,high) elves.< |
That's pretty comprehensive, convincing, and damning. This entire time, I thought the problem was with the DElf runner vs e.g. the wood elf thrower. That was missing the point, the point is the passing game is too risky to rely on, and making it not risky involves spending TV/SPP on skills that are of no use on defence.
This insight massively simplifies my team building strategy. Thanks, dude, your advice has been really helpful. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Mar 31, 2015 - 12:46 |
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Dark Elf runners are suboptimal... a waste
But there is also fun and fluff
I play the box (and ranked) with TWO runners in my dark elf team. Fore each time one of them make me win a match, thanks to their passing skill, there are one or two match that I could have probably won with a less expensive and more usefull player... but... damn it... when I make a good dumpoff in the face of the damn blitzer, I love it  |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 31, 2015 - 13:44 |
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| kilinrax wrote: | | Is the reasoning for passing access being dubious/worthless that - unless the game is going badly - you're only going to pick up/throw with your dedicated ball carrier rather than a random player a maximum of once a half? |
You're on the right track...
The reasoning is that core skills like block, tackle, dodge, mighty blow, and guard are better things to have on your team.
There's a second tier with skills like sidestep, strip ball, stand firm, frenzy, sure hands, leap, dirty player, and wrestle. These are also good skills, just more situational.
Finally there is jump up, piling on, claw, and other mutations. That's a whole different post.
Notice that not one of these skills is a passing skill. You're going to have a hard time finding a player with a skill that I didn't list here, unless he's a oneturning specialist (sure feet, sprint, grab), or I simply ran out of good skills to give him and decided on kick/leader. |
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KidCrestHill
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 31, 2015 - 14:08 |
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Man this turned into a Darkie Runner hate thread quickly, just give him Strong Arm and make him a thrower |
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