happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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 Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 20:52 |
 
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| mrt1212 wrote: |
Tis true. All Box does is move the picking to behind an abstraction that focuses all attention on who you play as based on perceieved likely opponents and likely skill combos. its perfect for people who believe "you cant control the wind but you can adjust your sails." |
This is why I enjoy both environments, depending on my mood. If I just can't stand to play another game against the derpomb teams ranked starts to feel nice. If I wait around for 45 minutes clicking matches (or not clicking anything and waited for someone to pitch me one) then suddenly the thought of a box draw starts to look good.
One thing that I find interesting in this kind of debate is the coaches who play similar teams in both environments but have VERY different win ratios in the box or in ranked. It's always amusing to see if I'm right when I guess that someone has been farming a team to go to the stats and take a look... What's this you say about how to play these guys? Ah, and you have x% in the box but (x+20)% in ranked? I see...  |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 21:08 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | One thing that I find interesting in this kind of debate is the coaches who play similar teams in both environments but have VERY different win ratios in the box or in ranked. |
Nope, I don't feel concerned. My win percentage with Orcs isn't 71% higher in Ranked. It's just your imagination! |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2015 - 01:05 |
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I'd play box if I could keep an elf team alive longer than 20 games.
Unfortunately, I am unable to consistently field teams with most positionals and less than 3-4 loners.
| happygrue wrote: | | One thing that I find interesting in this kind of debate is the coaches who play similar teams in both environments but have VERY different win ratios in the box or in ranked. It's always amusing to see if I'm right when I guess that someone has been farming a team to go to the stats and take a look... What's this you say about how to play these guys? Ah, and you have x% in the box but (x+20)% in ranked? I see... |
I'm 55% in the box and 65% in ranked, which sort of supports your argument, but look a little deeper.
Skaven Ranked: 126/28/53 Win Percentage 68%
Skaven Blackbox: 23/7/9 Win Percentage 68%
High Elf Ranked: 71/27/26 Win Percentage 68%
High Elf Blackbox: 17/6/10 Win Percentage 61%
Chaos Pact Ranked: 39/12/30 Win Percentage 56%
Chaos Pact Blackbox: 31/10/24 Win Percentage 55%
Nurgle Ranked: 6/3/10 Win Percentage 39%
Nurgle Blackbox: 19/9/19 Win Percentage 50%
Couple of things in play here.
1) Rat Salat is not a good bash coach.
2) When RS plays blackbox, he is more likely to play a bash team.
3) RS loses more games in blackbox because he plays teams he sucks with more often
Of course there is also:
Wood Elf Ranked 125/18/51 Win Percentage 69%
Wood Elf Blackbox 9/9/9 Win Percentage 50%
Dark Elf Ranked 42/4/9 Win Percentage 80%
Dark Elf Blackbox 10/5/9 Win Percentage 52%
1) Rat Salat wins a lot of games with Wood and Dark Elves in Ranked
2) Wood and Dark Elves are particularity good at exploiting bad matchmaking decisions
3) RS may not be a uber picker, but if you greenlight his Dark Elves with a team without tackle, he's going to spank you pretty good and not feel bad about it
I think there's a distinction between the guys who sit on gamefinder for hours looking for that perfect cherry, and guys like me who are very good at finding the most favorable matchup. I also get quite a few good matchups from coaches who have no chance of winning the game, but want to kill my shiny pixels. I will quite happily take a free win against Angry Newscasters or a similar basher, if I feel the team needs a hair cut or can sustain the damage in exchange for a win. Ornbarad has an absolutely incredible record against bash teams, mainly because those teams never had a chance at actually winning the game, given that it was never their goal... they were more interested in killing Wardancers, a scenario which is fine by me. Your orc team has 8 mighty blow, no tacklepombers, and I can get 2 babes? Bring it, and I'm gonna win 80% of the time.
The end result of both can look very similar, a much higher winning percentage in Ranked. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2015 - 09:10 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | What's this you say about how to play these guys? Ah, and you have x% in the box but (x+20)% in ranked? I see... |
Yarp. A discrepancy is a bit of a siren. [B], if anything, can be a tad easier as you're forced into games you'd be too embarrassed to take in [R]. But the number should be relatively samey if all things are ship shape and Bristol fashion. I suppose it can work both ways, if you're teeing off with 'that' [B] team I imagine is impossible to build in [R]. Lots of free wins there.
We must be about there on this now if we're just stating the obvious? I don't see anything in the last 6 pages that conflicts with the conclusion of 'just be cool and get on with your own stuff'. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Mar 28, 2015 - 10:12 |
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Come on! The box isn't absolutely balanced as race presence. For every skaven team there are two wood team and 5 dwarf team. If i play mainly skaven, it is perfectly understandable if ny box records are much different from ranked
It depends from the box itself as much as my pick in ranked |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Mar 28, 2015 - 10:20 |
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Phwoar! Nice and easy Dwarves to run around. Glorious! 
But what does it matter? Why not just get on and have fun? I suppose I am just being a bit playful because it's early morning and we're really doing this thread again. Shrug.
Time to run away before we hit 10 pages. |
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Brainsaw
Joined: Sep 27, 2005
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Mar 28, 2015 - 16:32 |
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| Leilond wrote: | Come on! The box isn't absolutely balanced as race presence. For every skaven team there are two wood team and 5 dwarf team. If i play mainly skaven, it is perfectly understandable if ny box records are much different from ranked
It depends from the box itself as much as my pick in ranked |
This gives a pretty clear impression, which is the healthier League in Terms of Racial Distribution.
Personally if i use automatchmaking id like to play against the whole bandwidth of teams and NOT against the same 6 (Basher) races in 50% of the times..
Chance of Facing a Basher Team in B is about 65%.
Chance of Facing a ClawPOMB Team in B is about 43%.
Chance of Facing a soft or Elf Team in B is about 17%.
Anybody still wondering, why so many coaches dont like to play in B?
The Problem is not about playing against a Basher Team.
The Problem is about you can expect to play against a Basher Team most of the times!
Source:
http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/stats2.html
Number of played Games shown in the Diagram are since Introduction of CRP Ruleset. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Mar 30, 2015 - 09:55 |
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@Brainsaw, the concept is so simple that "I'm surprised" so many people do not see it
Ranked isn't a balanced division, because there some players (like me) that do not play very frequently against some team style (because I can choose to)
Black box isn't a balanced division, because there there are some races and some team styles that are much much more present than others.
In both division, you cannot expect to see teams that play equally against different races and different team style
When I want to play vs a basher, I apply all my teams in the box... 4 times on 5, I will find my basher. If I want to play vs a quick/agile opponent, I HAVE TO look for them in ranked.
The only balanced division, could be a division where you cannot pick your opponent BUT you cannot play two times AGAINST the same race in 15 matches (or a similar number).
But a division like this do not exists, thus a REALLY balanced division, do not exist in fumbbl
There are leagues where there are some limits in the race presence, and these leagues are usually more balanced than ranked and black box |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 30, 2015 - 10:38 |
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| Leilond wrote: | | The only balanced division, could be a division where you cannot pick your opponent BUT you cannot play two times AGAINST the same race in 15 matches (or a similar number). |
But that would be pretty much a dead division as you would not be able to get any games.
You would have to change the rules and we are not going to change the rules. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Mar 30, 2015 - 10:46 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Leilond wrote: | | The only balanced division, could be a division where you cannot pick your opponent BUT you cannot play two times AGAINST the same race in 15 matches (or a similar number). |
But that would be pretty much a dead division as you would not be able to get any games.
You would have to change the rules and we are not going to change the rules. |
Completely agree! It was a mere "example" about a possib le "balanced division", not a request to create something like that! (A division like that can survive ONLY if you completely remove Black Box and probably Ranked and let it exists alone, but this is not going to happen, and I'm not asking for it)
The fact is that there isn't any really balanced division on fumbbl, and there won't be, at least for now
I don't feel it as a problem, because I'm not a maniac of competition, I'm here to play blood bowl, not to climb a "best coach ladder". If I look for a basher, I apply to box; if I look for agile team, I look for it in ranked. I'm PERFECTLY satisfied with this. |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Mar 30, 2015 - 11:49 |
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The average coach will always have a slightly lower rating in B than in R.
This doesnt necessarily imply heavy picking. If you do so i guess you lack the ability to see what fumbbl and this game is like for the average guy/ coach (read: the majority), because you are way too good and high at the top.
"[B], if anything, can be a tad easier as you're forced into games you'd be too embarrassed to take in [R]"
Makes no sense at all. And one of the arguments that contradicts the statement is even provided with it.
Well it seems so contradicting and poor portrait of reality really, i must assume it was probably english humor/ irony altogether that i didnt get once more.
Think my best combined ratings has been 51% so far while it was 45% in box. I have played way more box games than R games. If that makes me a picker according to that casual logic, fine.
Box is harder. Not only for the picking or Cpomb spread. There are more factors to this.
If you dont play cpomb in B you actually end up being on the cherry side a lot anyway. Probably still the most important factor when comparing both divisions but, as said there are, much more (box has way less rookies or inexperienced or sub-mediocre coaches just to name another one).
How this factor alone should make B games easier than R i guess i will fail to understand.
Ah anyway, who cares.
But its kinda sad that once again we clearly state and analyze that both divisions dont really work that great anymore (trying to be as euphemistically here as im able to) - and even state we feel fine with it and accept it!
"If R gets to horrible B seems to get appealing, and vice versa. And im perfectly fine with it!"
What we constantly describe is that divisions that were meant to be perpetual divisions/ league systems, where every new fumbbler could jump in straight away to easily get casual matches - while still participating in some kind of ranking/ league and having competition and goals by that - have turned into divisions that now more or less are suited for tourney preparations only. Or for clawpombing or anti clawpombing only.
And if both divisions problems become too much to take you dodge to the other one. We constantly state all of this, yet still pretend its all fine.
Come on - it doesnt have to be perfect, its a free site and you can always try to arrange - wholeheartedly agreed.
That may all be fine for the usual dedicated fumbbl vet for whom the main interest has become the tourney scene or league anyway and who also has learned to dodge the hurdles and adapt to them.
But what is with new coaches and/ or coaches who dont play L or tourneys?
Chances are a good amount of them will never find out how much they get picked in both divisions, yeah.
And if a problem doesnt get obvious it doesnt exist right?
Chances are we fumbbl vets (in order top adapt to the flawed system and use it with some satisfaction) more or less must play them on inherent unfair conditions to welcome them.
We all know R anyway and how challenging it is to actually not pick even if you try. Chances are you wont try to accept the most challenging match in order to get a tourney preparation match, right? So...
Honestly, fumbbl is great. But both divisions dont work and serve their purpose anymore but only can fulfill the needs of the long time fumbbl cracks/ coaches who have learned to cope with the flaws. What makes this especially tasty, as said, is that it affects new members the most. And pragmatical/ practical it can become a threat to the system itself.
As said we constantly state the obvious even, yet downplay it.
It doenst have to be utopia but pretending there aint a problem while we are stating in the same sentence there indeed is - is too much for my logics, morals and spine too accept at times. Its just too stupid/ senseless after all is said.
Best ofc is when we once more resort to comparing both divisions as we do here and fight out which is the bestest or the worst, dividing the player base (if those ramblings get more serious, which ofc they tend to do in cycles).
Something we - obviously - wouldnt even feel the need to if indeed everything was as fine and groovy as we claim... |
Last edited by albinv on %b %30, %2015 - %12:%Mar; edited 2 times in total |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 30, 2015 - 12:03 |
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| albinv wrote: |
"[B], if anything, can be a tad easier as you're forced into games you'd be too embarrassed to take in [R]"
Makes no sense at all. And one of the arguments that contradicts the statement is even provided with it.
Well it seems so contradicting and poor portrait of reality really, i must assume it was probably english humor/ irony altogether that i didnt get once more.
Box is harder. Not only for the picking or Cpomb spread. There are more factors to this. |
I am guessing that the person who said that is a top coach. i.e. unless they "pick" another top coach they are very likely to win. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 30, 2015 - 12:27 |
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This is becoming a real kitchen sink thread isn't it? "Everything I ever wanted to say about Box, Ranked, Picking, Min-Maxing and all the rest."
While I'm at it and while I'm procrastinating @ work, I'll add my own kitchen sink thoughts.
* There is a big difference between playing to build teams and playing on a match for match basis for coach ranking, meta group points or just the fun of it. And both approaches, if taken to the extreme, don't have very much to do with "Blood Bowl as intended". That applies to Box and Ranked equally.
* Me personally, I'm more uncomfortable with the Ranked metagaming than with the Box metagaming, because it feels more intangible and less equal to me, if that makes sense.
* The whole hyperbreeding of teams encouraged by the matchmaking and the sheer number of games you can play on Fumbbl, combined with the focus on Majors, certainly is special about Fumbbl. Whether it's good or bad? Well the whole speccing and betting, the forum threads and chat, the love and the hate, that's certainly good. But the broken teams and stat freaks are a part of that. Much as I welcome the NAF style tourneys I just don't see them creating the same amount of hype, of memorable teams, pixels, grudges and outrages. Can't wash yourself without getting wet.
* I don't have a problem with rules that require a case-by-case judgment, in fact, those are the only (social) rules that cannot easily be circumvented or perverted. However, if you don't have the time and nerve to apply them to each and every case, the worst thing you can do is not apply them most of the time and then apply them, harshly, in a few cases to make an example. |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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| Posted:
Mar 30, 2015 - 12:29 |
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| koadah wrote: | | I am guessing that the person who said that is a top coach. i.e. unless they "pick" another top coach they are very likely to win. |
In which case it would still be a contradicting statement.
If that was so 100% true why even bring in the argument for B to force you in to those matches?
Doesnt make much sense. So seems like another attempt at playing problems down then or other reasons that make you say so.
Might also be it wasnt meant in the way i got it and indeed irony in some sort which i failed to get as stated.
Anyhow, the problems described have been stated over and over, rightfully so. Parts of it, at times, by you as well K.
So ofc you can simply put me off as a crab and whatnot who never makes sense anytime - as it seems to me you prefer to do simply out of principal - but if you choose to argument, try harder than that really. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Mar 30, 2015 - 12:42 |
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@albinv
A "balance problem" exists, that's a fact, in both division
And it cannot be solved, at least with the rules there are now
Because the only way to "solve" the problem, is FORCING all races to be equally rapresented in term of "TURN PLAYED" in a division. Do we understand what does this implies? A complete revolution of the site rule and schedule system! Unthinkable.
Being "fine with it" has nothing to do with being HAPPY with it, but it's simply understanding that if something is completely out of your power range, you can blame or find a way to be fine with it.
It look like there isn't any plan to create a division that will make a good percentage of the races to be equally rapresented (not for lack of will of the "rulers", but probably for the too much difficulty to realize it), thus, what can I do? I play a couple of box and/or ranked match a week and one or two league matches. With this limited time, I can only "be fine with it" and post a couple of comments on the forum to help newcomers not to be picked. |
Last edited by Leilond on %b %30, %2015 - %12:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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