Nightbird
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Mar 28, 2015 - 16:46 |
 
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| Wreckage wrote: |
Although some media seem to claim that and that would be a foregone conclusion, there exists actually no information that explicitly states that his sickness was related to mental illness.
If it was however, your point is moot, as anyone who is a potential amok runner would be diagnosed with mental illness due to him 1. diverging massively from the norm and 2. being a threat to others.
If the assumption is that nobody is responsible for their actions because we are all slaves to our social and genetical preconditioning, the conclusions this has for life and coexistance do not really diverge from the rules based on which we live our lives today.
If a single individuum however would decide to want to reinvent the wheel and start to replace prisons with reeducation-centers, he would find soon that this line of thinking can spout far more brutal and inhumane results than anything our society produces today. Who is sick is treated based on his stage of recovery. A thief, a threat to societies integrity could be in therapeutical confinement forever if he does not learn that he is doing wrong due to his mental incapacities. Yet, society is very well equipped to handle that level of instability. Mental instituitions do not discriminate based on guilt. It's clockwork orange.
A society however that punishes based on guilt, is indiscrimate in the way your condition occured and assures that involuntary confinement does not exceed the harm, thus does only what is necessary to retain social stability without labelling people with the stigmata of sickness.
As a true believer in equality and freedom I find most people who stand up for non-repressed groups, their values to be totalitarian and fascist in nature. So is the gay-rights movement and the womans-rights movement hypocritical to its core in their ambition to make people see the world through a lense. |
Very well thought out post Wreckage. I agree completely w/ your thoughts.
I, basically, say if the worlds laws were based on 'I think' we'd be in serious trouble. It seems to me that lots of folks on this site lately are pushing THEIR agendas quite hard &, at least from my point of view, it is making for an unsatisfactory experience here on fumbbl. And since I have been here from the very beginning of this awesome sites creation & seen all of the ups & downs it is quite disheartening. Alot of these folks, to me at least, seem bitter & dark hearted. Unable to see the bigger picture due to pushing, again, THEIR agendas to the point of being blind to others points of view. To me that is the worst kind of attitude. When you are unable to see that YOUR view, while it may certainly be valid to a population of like-minded folks here & within your rights to believe, is harmful to the overall population you become a fanatic. The worst kind of believer.
What does that have to do w/ 'name & shame'? Everything. No one has the right to slander another w/out first providing unquestionable evidence to the proper authorities in place. Those authorities can then, w/ proper due diligence, decide if, in fact, that evidence equates to wrong-doing. In summary, there are certainly times to report something, but there are far too many folks, lately, adhering a self-made badge to their chests in a, uninvited I might add, attempt to police Fumbbl. Please stop, you are NOT helping. The Fumbbl staff & the 'support' link are there for a reason. Please use them if you feel the need & let the people Christer has put in charge decide if what you think is actually a wrong.
So, again, I'll be tuning out. Feel free to twist my words or quote them out of context, label or flame me or whatever. Thanks for reading.
~Ciao
Edit: Wow, I almost never revisit posts I make in the forum, but it occurred to me that some of you may think I don't get what the other points of view here are & so I edit. I'll just add that I get the reasons all these threads are coming up. People want to better the community as do I. However, I simply do my part in a different way. So don't think I'm completely invalidating anyone's opinions. I'm not. I value them, but I, unlike some, trust in the powers that be, these powers at least, the U.S. Govt. is another story, to take us in the right direction & I'm certainly aware that those powers value the forum & what is said here. It's a tool, I get it, but I just don't care for the bitter/ dark souled people that feel the need to attack others, sometimes, w/out even REALLY knowing them & I see that alot. It's easy to put together a bunch of subjective evidence & claim foul, but it almost NEVER tells the whole story. I've always done my best to see both sides of the coin, but that doesn't mean I have to agree. That's the beauty of being free. Thanks again. I'm out! |
_________________
"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley
Last edited by Nightbird on %b %28, %2015 - %18:%Mar; edited 2 times in total |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2015 - 16:58 |
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Nightbird, what you are bemoaning is part of the societal change that has affected us since social media allowed the entire web-connected population to become much more directly involved with and connected to events and decisions every day. People are no longer content to sit back and watch others make all the decisions / adjudicate on stuff. They want to get involved or at the very least voice their opinion. Frequently they get involved from a poorly advised and uninformed position and dont contribute to a positive outcome, but I think the days of the "masses" being content to let authority figures get on with it without having their own voice are over. Its up to all of us to bring sanity to such discussions.
You say you have been part of this comunity since the start. Great. You will know one of the main reasons fumbbl has endured so long is that it has kept up with the times and when necessary adapted in order to remain relevant. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2015 - 19:07 |
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| The_Great_Gobbo wrote: | | Look, name and shame is the wrong term as it implies wrongdoing on the oppo's part which is not what I am on about, but if you have had an unsatisfactory (define by your own parameters) experience then surely you should be able to discuss it as adults? |
How are we supposed to discuss things like adults when some of the people on the sites are LITERALLY children?
And many more people on the site are just children of advanced age but not maturity levels? |
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Throweck
Joined: Feb 23, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 28, 2015 - 19:34 |
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Eusebio
Joined: Sep 20, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 29, 2015 - 00:40 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | Eusebio wrote: |
In 2015 most of the educated world has acknowledged that depression and other limitations of cognitions are a sickness  the time when they are just labelled as stupid or mad should be long over... |
Although some media seem to claim that and that would be a foregone conclusion, there exists actually no information that explicitly states that his sickness was related to mental illness.
If it was however, your point is moot, as anyone who is a potential amok runner would be diagnosed with mental illness due to him 1. diverging massively from the norm and 2. being a threat to others.
If the assumption is that nobody is responsible for their actions because we are all slaves to our social and genetical preconditioning, the conclusions this has for life and coexistance do not really diverge from the rules based on which we live our lives today.
If a single individuum however would decide to want to reinvent the wheel and start to replace prisons with reeducation-centers, he would find soon that this line of thinking can spout far more brutal and inhumane results than anything our society produces today. Who is sick is treated based on his stage of recovery. A thief, a threat to societies integrity could be in therapeutical confinement forever if he does not learn that he is doing wrong due to his mental incapacities. Yet, society is very well equipped to handle that level of instability. Mental instituitions do not discriminate based on guilt. It's clockwork orange.
A society however that punishes based on guilt, is indiscrimate in the way your condition occured and assures that involuntary confinement does not exceed the harm, thus does only what is necessary to retain social stability without labelling people with the stigmata of sickness.
As a true believer in equality and freedom I find most people who stand up for non-repressed groups, their values to be totalitarian and fascist in nature. So is the gay-rights movement and the womans-rights movement hypocritical to its core in their ambition to make people see the world through a lense. |
First, we are talking about naming and shaming. The pillory doesn´t exist anymore in most of the civilized world. Thank god. My example was that of a man, being named and shamed on a worldwide scale. No one knows what happened, but he (postmortem) and his family, etc. are exposed to whatever comes with this. For example, being called a suicide bomber. That´s a negative side-effect of n&s. You put an ancor in peoples heads, which is very hard to get rid of. If someone would n&s me for a thing I haven´t done, I would have to set things right and this could take a lot of energy. If I was n&s for something I did (on purpose or probably unintended or in a different/strange context that only me and my friends will understand), it could very well be, that the punishment I receive for that is way out of line.
Second, I have to ask some questions about your post:
| Quote: | | If the assumption is that nobody is responsible for their actions because we are all slaves to our social and genetical preconditioning, the conclusions this has for life and coexistance do not really diverge from the rules based on which we live our lives today. |
You are saying here: If we are not responsible for our actions, there is no difference to the rules we are obeying now (which I deduce are based on the fact we are no slaves). Somehow I don´t get this... Fact is, we all have internalized norms and values based on culture, origin, socialization etc.
But I dont know why you would bring that up anyway...(understood my 2nd post as if I called you uneducated and you had to make up?)
What comes next is also very confusing. You want to put a thief in a mental institution? If he is claustrophobic I´d agree. If he is a criminal, he should be punished... which brings me to your next paragraph.
A society should never punish. Thats why you have separation of power. A judge can punish, based on facts. It´s hard but he should be free of all biases. If a society punishes, it surely doesn´t just punish to "retain social stability", as proved earlier (and there are tons of examples)
"As a true believer in equality..." cries for a funny ending. Gays and women are non-repressed groups? Where in Germany do you live, and when was the last time you got out of your village or clicked on a different site than fumbbl?
Overall your post hat a slite notion of people who are mentally ill (depressed, schizophrenic, manic, bulimic, anorexic, etc.) don´t really have problems... you should definitely rethink... as per definition they are unable to think "straight". |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 29, 2015 - 01:59 |
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| Eusebio wrote: | | ... you should definitely rethink... |
This is getting too off topic and after bothering to write that and getting such a lenthy response I don't feel like dropping it either. So lets move it to private message.  |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 29, 2015 - 03:17 |
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If we name/shame The Great Gobbo for starting this thread, does that break the ToU?
<snorks scotch out his nose onto his Wall Street Journal>
HA! (You said "boobies")  |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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I'm going to leave aside wreckages unsupported and inflammatory conclusions. Else we will start a huge off topic issue.
Ok, finally i am drunk enough to be bothered replying to this. i guess I am the first fumbbl official to achieve this level of drunkenness since this thread started, so it falls to me...
Naming and shaming:
Alienates the person named and shamed. They will never agree, they will never say 'yeah fair enough'. So it will always start a fight and create bad feeling.
Inviting others in. Some people will join any fight, seemingly randomly choosing a side, and entrenching positions. It doesn't matter what you have/havn't done, someone out there thinks its fine, and someone else feels you are the devil himself.
Bringing old issues to the fore. Your situation reminds someone of something massively different, except in their heads. So we refight old issues time and time again.
No rehabilitation. Once named and shamed, you are always 'that guy' that did X to Y. How do you move past this, the forum is there for ever.
Less chance of a solution. People never ever think they have done wrong, But are FAR more likely to accept and move on from a private problem than a public one.
Errors. People are not always reasonable. Some charges have no validity, thus besmirching a good coaches name and/or making the accuser look an arse. No one gains from this.
Due process. If the forums (a small niche group of fummbl coaches) has agreed on something, how can the admins run a fair and reasonable investigation?
oh look i'm bored. I have many more points but i can't be arsed. Simple question: If accused of wrongdoing would you rather the matter was handled privately and discretely? or on the forums? Whether the accusation is true or not the real answer is privately for almost everyone.
Simple.
/thread. |
_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Mar 29, 2015 - 03:57 |
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Peer pressure is a proven regulator.
Just sayin. |
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CanvasBack
Joined: Jan 15, 2007
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Mar 29, 2015 - 05:25 |
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The risk of defamation is higher than any benefit of "naming and shaming." Simply not playing a person you find objectionable ought to be sufficient and if enough people INDEPENDENTLY come to your conclusion and act accordingly then the message will be received and perhaps understood. |
_________________
"When you have shot and killed a man you have in some measure clarified your attitude toward him. You have given a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or worse you have acted decisively. In a way, the next move is up to him." R.A. Lafferty |
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Jeffro
Joined: Jan 22, 2009
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Mar 29, 2015 - 06:34 |
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akaRenton
Joined: Apr 15, 2008
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Mar 29, 2015 - 12:02 |
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Surely the short answer to why we cant name/shame is that it is a rule set by the person who made and provides the site for free. As long as he does so he can set the rules. I might not agree with every rule of the site, but it's not much of an ask for a great site that I don't have to pay anything for.
People can post as many pseudo intellectual responses as they like, but in the end they're all meaningless as it's not our decision.
As someone else wisely pointed out in this thread...
Boobies. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 29, 2015 - 15:42 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: | | unsupported and inflammatory conclusions. |
If you want I can add you to the private conversation so that you don't feel left out and can participate.
But please gimme a break, I just let that stand, took the crap and tied an arm behind my back. I dunno about you, but the only reason why I'm ever holding back on you guys is because I'm such a sensitive guy that I don't want to see any of you getting hurt over stuff I'm saying.
| Quote: | Due process. If the forums (a small niche group of fummbl coaches) has agreed on something, how can the admins run a fair and reasonable investigation?
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I gotta ask tho. Do you think that is a goal for the administration? I mean It's not exactly like the site lives up to the highest standards of modern society. Due process.. Admins here are more like little Judge Dredds, see and decide, no distance, no evaluation of evidence, a formal hearing at best, no consideration, no defense, no time and a sentence. Police, Judge and Jury. I think a lot of people do like that. I meet a lot of people who think that is justice.
Rules are even intentionally obscured. No public supervision, no informations, no trust in the people, just disrespect and disrespect towards the community from itself. Is that ok? Probably, for a website about gaming, we go for quick solutions.
We should actually.
It doesn't really matter, right? Does it bother me personally? The thought that people could think that this is proper justice bothers me a little, I suppose. Not the site, not the quick fix, just the mentality. The thought that people could think this is how things should be everywhere. Secretive, making the absence of informations actually a bonus point for having trust in the system, you have to, right? You have to trust. People who claim to be educated. But then again it's cool. I mean it's all cool, justifiable, not necessary but justifiable. Things get better, that's the important thing no need to rush it. Why take things too seriously when it just boils down to Gobbo shortwireing over a bad game, right? It's like Renton says, in the end it is about how the guy who has the last word wants to run things, not about what is right. And we can consider ourselves fortunate that the guy who runs things here is more progressive than people in most other places of the interweb. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 29, 2015 - 16:06 |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Mar 29, 2015 - 17:10 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Get a grip Wreckage. No one thinks it's Utopia. But if you are running a site for free in your own spare you have to make some concessions. |
he was joking though, right? |
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