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Rat_Salat

Joined: Apr 22, 2011

Posted: Mar 26, 2015 - 16:29

happygrue wrote:

Sure Feet (he is the best one turner on your team right now?)

It depends. With a reroll the Wardancer has a better chance (91.62% vs 89.08%). Without a reroll, the catcher has the edge due to his catch skill (77.16% vs 84.39%).

Since these numbers exclude all actions other than the catch and GFI, it's pretty likely that your OTS percentage with the catcher will be better in most situations. However, if you can make the blocks, pick up the ball and pass it without using a reroll, the Wardancer is about 2.5% better. What isn't factored in is that the Wardancer has sidestep, which can eliminate one block in some situations... however with a grab treeman, there are just too many OTS options to simulate every scenario.

Since oneturners tend to fall over and die on a GFI, I think I would use the 6 SPP catcher in most situations.I go into some pretty good detail on the power of the 6spp catcher here.

TL;DR: They have similar chances, so let's use the cheap guy who naturally benefits more from sure feet and will be a better option when he gets sidestep or a lucky +MA.

happygrue

Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Posted: Mar 26, 2015 - 16:57

Well, I can see you have some things to teach me about wood elves. I'll read up!

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licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Mar 26, 2015 - 17:35

happygrue wrote:

Well, I can see you have some things to teach me about wood elves. I'll read up!

I get your joke Smile

Quote:

Wood elves are good at a lot of things, but what they do absolutely better than anyone else is score. There's a lot of reasons for this. They have the best thrower.

Quote:

I still think wrestle is a better choice for a less-impressive physical specimen, if only because it nearly assures a shorter career and new canvas to build on.

MrT wrote:

When is Kick better than Dodge on Line Elves? How many Dodgy line elves do you like before you select Kick? What happens if they skill up and get stats or doubles? Do you just not really ever build line elves and plow all the SPP into Wardancers and Catchers? As you said yourself, Line Elves are not tissue paper, is a blodge elf or a kick dodge elf better at 16 spp?

Here's the evaluation Rat Salat made: The opportunity cost of forgoing Dodge for Kick (and delaying all subsequent survival and development) for any given lino is greater than forgoing any skill that could have taken by the Wardancer at this point in his career. Kick was chosen because it's a team skill that you always use and almost every other choice involves rolling a dice that can have bad outcomes or just aren't utilized very often at all.

When is kick better? That depends on how you play your team, what stage of development they are in, who your opponents are, ... (R vs. B vs. L matters to a degree, this is an R team)

For this team I'd not hesitate to take kick on whichever lineelf skills next, because you don't need 11x dodge, you have your stars, they do all the heavy lifting, everyone else is just kind of there milling about and getting in peoples way. Does dodge help them do that? Not really. It doesn't hurt, it might make them 'live longer', but you really aren't concerned about how long the fodder lives are you? Again, that's not saying you kamikaze them into -2dbs on things, that's saying that they don't get killed over and over in every match you play. Especially in R, if that's how you want to do it (not suggesting that RS is doing this, frankly he doesn't pick, which is to his credit).

What happens on their next skill up is whatever happens. You cannot plan out players from scratch, so why worry about it? I'll tell you this much though, the kicker probably doesn't get a lot of extra spp anyway, unless you feed it to him, but why would you? His only reason to exist is to carry kick. It doesn't really matter what I would do either, it matters what people who follow the rule of 5 are doing. And that's where I'm coming from. These people do not spread spp, sure they may build a line elf or two after they hit some MVPs or randomly get spp in a match, but otherwise they want their 4-6 fodder to not skill at all. There's only one roster where I support that attitude and it's Norse, but the benefit of getting guard on those Norse linemen is immense so I personally don't ignore them.

I disagree with your evaluation as well. RS doesn't worry about opportunity cost for giving a lino a skill because he never intends to give them any skills anyway. Why add TV to a line fodder player? Why add TV to any player who isn't one of your 5?

You can argue all day about how it's 'safer' to put kick on a wardancer, but just how important is having kick for every single kick off? It's not unimportant, but then again, having it on a line elf doesn't cost you anything either. It's 20tv either way (though I think worrying about TV to that degree is ridiculous, but if you want to do it, go ahead and do it). How often will that extra dodge on your line elf win you a game compared to having a diving tackle (or other useful skill for the WD)?

No one really knows, but grue made a very good point about building a team to face any other kind of team, not just whatever teams you may pick in R (again, RS is not a picker, this is a more general statement).

Perhaps it's my L bias showing, I don't know, but I simply do not consider R to be 'legitimate'. Building a team for R allows you so much more flexibility in sweetspotting skill sets and builds because you know you can always avoid whatever kind of team/skill set you are not building to handle.

Oh, and for the record, I think RS knows I'm not slagging him. I mean I kind of am, but we've danced before and there's nothing personal about the discussion. Honestly, I'm kind of bored, so then I start pontificating on various topics in various forums. In the end though it will help everyone else to remember that if nothing else, I'm always right, not Jimmy and his bogus endorsements, but me, the guy who doesn't need the extra support Wink

JimmyFantastic

Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Posted: Mar 26, 2015 - 17:41

Sorry dude, you've already said I'm always right in another thread lol.

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licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Mar 26, 2015 - 17:44

Pics or it didn't happen!

Rat_Salat

Joined: Apr 22, 2011

Posted: Mar 26, 2015 - 21:55

licker wrote:

RS doesn't worry about opportunity cost for giving a lino a skill because he never intends to give them any skills anyway.

This isn't entirely true. I actually don't mind developing linemen, I just don't go out of my way to get them skills. I also favor dodge over block, so linemen on this particular team don't get a lot of lucky casualties. I also play AV8 elves quite differently. Since I give High/Dark elves block first, they skill more quickly... and of course die less frequently. Having block is also better defensively than having dodge when being blitzed by a tacklepomber... which of course leads to my non-rule of 5 wood elf linemen getting maimed or killed with higher frequency. It's absolutely true that I couldn't care less if a dodge lineman dies. It's absolutely not true that I think the team is better without a few, I just won't go out of my way to build them because there's always a couple of skilled ones lying around.

There are quite a few star linemen in Ornbarad's past, and since I run with 4 positionals, I always have a space saved for that special lineman who got promoted from fodder to the fab 5.

Golf, "The Elfballer"

Foxtrot III, "The Hammer"

Juliett II, "The Miracle Worker"

Delta II, "The Distractor"

Maybe not quite as many as some other teams, but there's nothing wrong with 7/3/4/7 as a chassis. Definitely don't take +ST or +MA on them, but +AG is welcome indeed.

garyt1

Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Posted: Mar 26, 2015 - 23:31

Rat_Salat wrote:

3) Adding diving tackle to a fast team with 3 mighty blow pretty much assures I won't be getting any elfball, stunty, or lizard games until that wardancer dies. Obvious anti-elf teams don't get as many choices in gamefinder.

Do people really look at a roster and reject a game due to having a blodge diving tackler?

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Fingard

Joined: Oct 07, 2008

Posted: Mar 26, 2015 - 23:37

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