bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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 Posted:
Apr 01, 2015 - 18:58 |
 
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I can see 1 aspect not covered yet:
Catcher with block, dauntless, tackle, pro is a hell of a sweeper in spite of the low strength. |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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Apr 01, 2015 - 22:11 |
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A St 2 Wrestle/Strip has a 25/36 chance to knock the ball loose. Dauntless would only improve that, and Tackle improves the % to drop a Target w/ Dodge.
Another thing Humans have to balance is high-bash vs. "getting games" - some (not "all", but "some") coaches will avoid any R team with multiple MB and/or POMB.
Just something to keep in consideration.
| happygrue wrote: | ... And what dog-related things are they actually good at?  |
(They have plastic bags for that.) |
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coombz
Joined: Oct 12, 2010
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Apr 01, 2015 - 22:51 |
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well i'm a bad coach in general and especially bad with humans
but my first thought it was that with a Catcher as your ball carrier you're making things too easy for your opponents by using a ST2 guy to hold the rock.
also, you're planning spend 20k on SH for him, when a thrower gets SH AND pass for only 20k more than the cost of a lineman, AND has ST3 |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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Apr 01, 2015 - 23:04 |
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The advantages of using a Catcher are 1) that he can Blodge on normals, and 2) is MA 8.
But imo you're right, the disads outweigh that.
But since a Human Thrower can't get Dodge on normals, he needs to be protected OR get the ball to a (St 3?) Blodger asap if it looks like the Defense may be pressuring.
Most new coaches, when they see the "Catch" skill (and especially a player called a "Catcher"), immediately and only think of Passing players. But BB requires a Catch roll for a handoff - and that's their best use, to get into position to score and be handed the ball (before or after). |
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spubbbba
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
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Apr 01, 2015 - 23:05 |
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In part it depends if you want to build them up to high TV or not. If you do then an ogre is useful, the extra strength and guard are very useful against other hybrid teams and he can tie up some bashers too.
I love human throwers and take 2 at 125+. The extra TV is offset by starting with sure hands and getting easy access to leader. Their other normal skills should be typical linemen skills like block, kick, tackle and even strip ball, though KoR is nice too. Linemen tend not to live very long and blitzers have better choices so these utility skills can be lacking.
Don't overlook the passing game, whilst it is unreliable the threat of it is a great tactic for opening up defences. If slow teams have to send 2 players to chase a catcher you sent down 1 flank so much the better.
Catchers are tough as they tend to be the weak link of the team, but the extra MA is really nice. The tough thing for humans is that they are a team that really needs subs but don't want to be giving away inducements. Catchers aren't great on defence vs bash teams and you don't want to have to many expensive players on the bench. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Apr 01, 2015 - 23:22 |
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Ogres are important when facing stronger rosters. It is straight forward for (e.g) Orcs or Lizards to overrun Humans if your Ogre is not looking after a position and stopping all of your mobile AG3 easily being marked out of a game. Three dice on Elven Linemen when the opposition hasn't built a decent team is also lovely. I like a Thrower and a Catcher as well, if Humans are to succeed (assuming you're playing a variety of opposition, of course), it's via being half decent at everything, since they will never excel at any one thing. Built in Sure Hands is good, quick Blodge is also good. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 01, 2015 - 23:22 |
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My only rule for humans is don't take more catchers than you feel capable of supporting. Anything else is just the zestiness of playing Humans |
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Dunenzed
Joined: Oct 28, 2011
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Apr 02, 2015 - 10:44 |
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1) Blitzer Development
A tackle pomber on a Human team could well scare your potential agile opponents. You can fix this by only greenlighting cpombers, dorfs and orcs. Not sure if you are comfortable with picking like this though.
2) Lineman Development
Dauntless after block is awesome. And by awesome I mean highly situational, but interesting when you don't have many other choices.
Also dirty players.
3) Catcher Development
Um, they ain't skinks - stunty makes a huge difference here. I love them, but they are terrible. Pray for ag, ma or both. Wrackling strippers can be good fun. OTS builds strike me as the name of the game. The idea of running 3 is madness. I approve. This will further attract cpombers, dorfs and orcs.
4) No Thrower/Ogre
Ogres are fun. I like break tackle as their first skill as the become a fraction more mobile and can be thrown at a cage at a push. With Ag4 you'll have limited options for cage breaking. Important given the suggested green light policy.
Throwers are great. They tend to live a bit longer than lino's so are great for utility skills like kick, KOR and leader. Neither of these positionals will scare off the bashers.
Good luck. |
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PacoSillas
Joined: Feb 02, 2009
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Apr 02, 2015 - 10:52 |
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But Dunen ... you're talking about playing humans. That's not what the OP is asking .. stick to the topic  |
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Stonetroll
Joined: Jun 30, 2005
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Apr 02, 2015 - 12:07 |
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The real question is, what are they being groomed for? |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Apr 02, 2015 - 12:11 |
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There are many ways to play Humans. 4 Catcher Builds. 2 Thrower Builds. etc etc etc
I suggest you use an Ogre and at least 1 Thrower. Having an Ogre to hold down the Center of your formation is KEY. Having 1 guy that can lay down a 2D Block in a scrum to set up other 2D Blocks is KEY. Having a guy that can soak up a few hits on the LOS is KEY.
Pick up and carry with the Thrower. The POTENTIAL to Pass is KEY whether you need to resort to Passing or not. When you cage keep the Catcher next to the Thrower for a Hand Off when your cage starts to collapse. By having the Catcher there if you have to switch fields and he has the speed to fill any spot on the cage. Plus the Catcher is an ASSIST you can get into a key position anywhere on the board.
On Offense set up in a way that will let you 2 Turn Score (pick up thrower and Pass of Handoff to Cather). Be prepared to 2 Turn BUT don't do it unless you have to. If your AV holds you want to burn clock. If your AV is not holding you want to be able to get your TD. Try to always have a way to score next turn... and simultaneously always try to delay scoring.
Just having Block on a Catcher is plenty of skills. Just having Block on a Thrower is plenty of skills. Just having Guard on your Ogre is plenty of skills. Add other skills to your taste. FEED your Blitzers as many spps as you can. Use your Thrower and Catcher to set up the other players.
I don't think Humans should use Rule of 5. Rule of 4 is more like it. The 4 Blitzers. That is the engine of the team. Especially on Defense, but at all times the Blitzers make or break the team. And the cheap Linemen are great at support.
And I agree the Human Catcher should have been tweaked in CRP. If nothing else they should have at least been made AV8 with no other changes. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 02, 2015 - 19:28 |
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Some good advice here. I'll reply to goo here since he summed up most of the best points.
| Purplegoo wrote: | | Ogres are important when facing stronger rosters. It is straight forward for (e.g) Orcs or Lizards to overrun Humans if your Ogre is not looking after a position and stopping all of your mobile AG3 easily being marked out of a game. Three dice on Elven Linemen when the opposition hasn't built a decent team is also lovely. I like a Thrower and a Catcher as well, if Humans are to succeed (assuming you're playing a variety of opposition, of course), it's via being half decent at everything, since they will never excel at any one thing. Built in Sure Hands is good, quick Blodge is also good. |
Human Throwers are MA6 sure hands for 70k, but there are a couple of reasons why I'm trying to play without one. Firstly, after Block, the list of useful skills thins out pretty fast. Block, Leader, Kick? A bit underwhelming. On the flipside, catchers are MA8 with GA access. At 16spp you have blodge surehands for a really efficient 110tv. The thrower needs a double to blodge, and his slow movement will surely result in rolling dice (GFI/pass) more than the catcher will have to. I suspect the catcher is just a better player. I could go with one of each, but I'm thinking that adding a second catcher once #1 has blodge will work out better for me. In hindsight, I am guessing the sure hands really helps a rookie team, and perhaps I should have bought one with the intention of not replacing him when the team is more mature.
Now the ogre. I can see your point about being useful against bash, but generally doesn't this involve the ogre acting fairly early in the turn, taking out a key cog in the opponent's defense, and setting up a sequence of other 2d blocks? We've all been in that situation, and repeating that action multiple times in a game vs Orcs is going to eventually result in an early turnover. That's likely the end of your drive, and perhaps the game if your position is poor.
The second problem is his TV cost. As a rookie, he's already costing 90k more than a basic lineman. Optimally built (Block/Guard), he's 190tv. That's 140tv in lineman skills, or potentially two block lineman and a pair of Block/Guard dudes. I don't think one ST5 bonehead/loner with Block/Guard/MB is as good as four individual linemen with skills. This is, of course, the absolute opposite of my strategy with elf teams, but I do not feel Rule of 5 is going to work with humans. I may think it's fun to lay 250tv on one wardancer, but I'm not as enthusiastic about investing that much in a boneheaded player. 190tv is a best-case scenario as well, non-block ogres are turnover machines, and block/guard/stand firm/break tackle ones cost the same as your opponent's +ST +AG legend. How can I possibly justify spending that much on an ogre, outside of bowing to the fluff?
This is of course, all theory. I don't have a lot of games with humans, and will probably fail miserably when I realize they don't dance like elves. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Apr 02, 2015 - 19:43 |
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Blocking early with a big guy is not optimal play, so don't do that. He's important passively. I'm sure you don't need a picture drawing. Big strong thing plus not letting important Blitzers get stuck with other strong things = better position = yay.
Like all other races with Throwers, the Humans have a Lineman with the Pass skill, a potential cheap RR and in this case, Sure Hands. Yummy Lino. Just because Linemen can run out of reasonable skills, there is no reason not to hire the best Lineman available.
I think it more likely you'll have to build this team properly / traditionally / boringly (delete as applicable to your personal slant) to attain good results (assuming you're playing reasonable opposition). Humans are not great, they're fine, but they need the help of doing things... Properly. Either way, Bon chance. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 02, 2015 - 20:07 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | Some good advice here. I'll reply to goo here since he summed up most of the best points.
| Purplegoo wrote: | | Ogres are important when facing stronger rosters. It is straight forward for (e.g) Orcs or Lizards to overrun Humans if your Ogre is not looking after a position and stopping all of your mobile AG3 easily being marked out of a game. Three dice on Elven Linemen when the opposition hasn't built a decent team is also lovely. I like a Thrower and a Catcher as well, if Humans are to succeed (assuming you're playing a variety of opposition, of course), it's via being half decent at everything, since they will never excel at any one thing. Built in Sure Hands is good, quick Blodge is also good. |
Human Throwers are MA6 sure hands for 70k, but there are a couple of reasons why I'm trying to play without one. Firstly, after Block, the list of useful skills thins out pretty fast. Block, Leader, Kick? A bit underwhelming. On the flipside, catchers are MA8 with GA access. At 16spp you have blodge surehands for a really efficient 110tv. The thrower needs a double to blodge, and his slow movement will surely result in rolling dice (GFI/pass) more than the catcher will have to. I suspect the catcher is just a better player. I could go with one of each, but I'm thinking that adding a second catcher once #1 has blodge will work out better for me. In hindsight, I am guessing the sure hands really helps a rookie team, and perhaps I should have bought one with the intention of not replacing him when the team is more mature.
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I think there's always room on a roster for a Wrackle Thrower. The ease with which he can garner SPPs (relatively speaking to a lineman, of course) can help you kick start some defensive builds that would otherwise be assigned to linemen. I'm not one to speak from experience on this since I've gone bananas with my Human throwers (Stats and Doubles really confound any "plan" I have to use them and I love an esoteric plan that comes together and works) but it works fine for a lot of other throwers I've had, especially Skaven. Also, Wrackle isn't going to cause any alarms to go off in Ranked, or at least it shouldn't.
I understand that you might not want to take wrestle on a Thrower for obvious reasons but this presupposes you will use him as your primary ball handler, which you wouldn't. If you have a surehanded blodged up catcher deep and a thrower shallow on a kickoff, you have a somewhat better opportunity, especially against Kick to at least get the ball off the ground on your first turn, even if that means holding the ball with the Thrower for 1 or 2 turns. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 20:10 |
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There is one thing you need to wrap your head around, rat.
everything humans do is a 1 in 9 fail chance, EVERYTHING.
Pass, Catch, Pick up the ball, dodge and yes, the ogre throwing a block/blitz and everybody else on the team who does not have block/wrestle. IMO coaches giving humanity a "go" seem to live in fear of the 1 in 9 fail.
So
Once you accept this, embrace it, do not fear it. Then you will be able to handle mentally the main issue of playing a human team...the rule of 1 in 9. You live and die by it.
of course that is why the +STATS are so important, to break the cycle of 1 in 9. Same goes for Diving Catch on catchers and accurate or Strong Arm on throwers, those give you AG4 on those actions, out to AG5 on a thrower with accurate/StrongArm. |
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