Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
 Posted:
Apr 20, 2015 - 18:51 |
 
|
| koadah wrote: |
Basically, you have to protect you best players. So, your grunts will take a beating early on. They take more hits, have fewer defensive skills so are more likely to bite the dust.
That is the rule. Like I said earlier on. This is just a CPOMB thread in disguise. 
|
Not to contest your conclusion and I know logic isn't your strong suit but shouldn't you conclude from that that this is an anti-clawpomb thread in disguise?
Which it isn't since it's not really about the rule of 5 but ok.
It's no doubt a min-max thread in disguise because it is dealing with team-management. Therefore in the widest sense a pro cpomb-thread in disguise since choosing CPOMB is a known good strategy for team building.
Oh well, which brings me back to another rule: All strategy talk in CRP is ultimatively about CPOMB therefore any other topic obsolete.
Anyways, glad to help. |
|
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 20, 2015 - 21:52 |
|
Min/max has such a negative connotation. We're not talking about some 1100tv box dwarf team, we're talking about getting fun games with elves.
These guys are turning out well. Team sits at 2020tv, which is pretty high for elves, but not in the range where it's no longer possible to get games. They are due to lose one of the positionals soon, which will cut the TV significantly. Team consists of:
170tv - Block/Grab Treeman
310tv - Superman Wardancer
220tv - Mighty Blow/Guard Wardancer
160tv - Luxury thrower w/ +MA
210tv - +ST, Guard Catcher
620tv - 8 linemen, three with block
330tv - 3 Rerolls, Apothocary, and Fan Factor
The team doesn't have everything... there's no kick. No frenzy lineman. The treeman could use guard, and the thrower would like block. I'd take sidestep on the second wardancer and catcher. But there's not a lot of fat here, except the thrower, who is a luxury player I keep around for my own enjoyment. Should the linemen have blodge instead of dodge? At this TV everyone has tackle, so honestly it's not that much of an improvement.
I think it's a good team. It's pretty much exactly what I was trying to build. It's got stats and doubles in the right places, and it's going to be a lot of fun to play until something dies and I start the process all over again. |
Last edited by Rat_Salat on %b %20, %2015 - %21:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
|
awambawamb
Joined: Feb 17, 2008
|
| Posted:
Apr 20, 2015 - 21:56 |
|
basically, how to deal with elves:
bash.
maim.
hope for BH so opponent doesn't flip over.
rinse&repeat.
the bash-fu teaches that Tackle is a priority.
rule of 5?
maybe 3, and one is a legendary tree that hopefully will root in and everyone will avoid like the plague.
the other two are:
-a wardancer, who has the VIP pass to the apo;
-a St1, Av5 catcher usually screened by the cannon fodder (linos).
 |
_________________
"la virtù sta nel cielo e nella terra, ma anche nelle nuvole e nelle stelle"
 |
|
Plorg
Joined: May 08, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 11:34 |
|
So here's a serious attempt to address the original post
from the perspective of a bashy LRB4 grognard.
Maybe this is feeding a troll or maybe this is actual knowledge transfer.
Admittedly, the original post and rules are in the context of
AG4 Elf varieties, so some rules don't have an easy conversion to bashy teams.
| Rat_Salat wrote: | | Back in LRB4, TV was calculated differently. Ageing rules and the manner in which team value was calculated made teams with a couple of pros and a bunch of joes uncompetitive. |
"Uncompetitive" is debatable, but that's a history lesson...
| Quote: | | Bash teams aspiring for the killstack tend to take less tackle than the fast strength teams, creating an elf-friendly environment. |
Bash teams that don't take early Tackle deserve to lose against Elves
(and Amazons and Lizards and anyone with Dodge).
| Quote: | | ST4 bash coaches looking to skill their various slow-developing front line players eagerly accept games against AV7 elves, seeking casualties against unskilled elf linemen. Said elf team suffers some attrition to bash team, but generally wins game without losing prized pieces such as wardancers. Chaos coach wishes he could have won, but happily selects next skill in the killstack on lucky Chaos Warrior. Elf coach happy that he only lost unskilled lineman, both players continue to enjoy bloodbowl. |
Mostly accurate, for inexperienced bash coaches.
| Quote: | In addition, there are various play and team-building philosophies that I adhere to that regularly come under fire from Fumbbl players, a large proportion whom I accuse of being LRB4 grognards. These ideas include, but are not limited to:
|
...
Admittedly, your rules are in the context of AG4 teams.
For bash teams with Strength access, here is a potential rewrite...
Consider this the other end of the "15 Rules" spectrum,
as the team average ST increases and average AG decreases.
| Plorg wrote: |
BASHY 15 Rules:
1) TAKE +stats on linemen
2) TAKE +ST
3) If you don't like any of your skill options, take GUARD or DIRTY PLAYER
4) Don't go out of your way to skill linemen
5) Save your apothecary for your SKILLED UNINJURED players
6) 5,5 on a HALFLING is DIRTY PLAYER
7) 6,6 on a PLAYER is +ST
8. HALFLING Treemen take GUARD first
9) NOBODY takes Sure Feet first
10) Score with whoever has the ball, don't screw around trying to hand off to a lineman
11) Your #1 priority on any team is to get a TACKLE blitzer
12) KHEMRI THRO-RAS are better than SKELETONS...?
13) Wardancers should BE MIGHTY BLOW TACKLED AND FOULED, in that order.
14) Something something AG6? Huh?
15) Wood elf catchers SHOULD BE MIGHTY BLOW TACKLED AND FOULED
|
DEBATE! |
|
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 12:51 |
|
| Wreckage wrote: | | koadah wrote: |
Basically, you have to protect you best players. So, your grunts will take a beating early on. They take more hits, have fewer defensive skills so are more likely to bite the dust.
That is the rule. Like I said earlier on. This is just a CPOMB thread in disguise.
|
Not to contest your conclusion and I know logic isn't your strong suit but shouldn't you conclude from that that this is an anti-clawpomb thread in disguise?
Which it isn't since it's not really about the rule of 5 but ok.
It's no doubt a min-max thread in disguise because it is dealing with team-management. Therefore in the widest sense a pro cpomb-thread in disguise since choosing CPOMB is a known good strategy for team building.
Oh well, which brings me back to another rule: All strategy talk in CRP is ultimatively about CPOMB therefore any other topic obsolete.
Anyways, glad to help. |
Did you just agree with me there? 
But yeah CPOMB & tackle-POMB cast a pretty big shadow over everything. |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
|
JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 13:26 |
|
| Rat_Salat wrote: | | Min/max has such a negative connotation. We're not talking about some 1100tv box dwarf team, we're talking about getting fun games with elves. |
LOL
Interesting distinction, especially when you're the one defining what is fun and what is not.
MinMaxing is exactly what you are doing. Negative connotation or not, that's irrelevant. But your approach is the textbook definition for it, even if you are not a 1100 tv box dwarf team.
You are advertising a building philosophy that proposes rules that make your team
a) tv efficient
while
b) likely to get games against teams philosophically or mechanically inadequate to match it
That's minmaxing. Deal with it. |
_________________
 |
|
Tantibus
Joined: Jul 21, 2014
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 14:07 |
|
Surely its a rule of 4? unless you're screening a Treeman. |
|
|
Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 14:34 |
|
| Tantibus wrote: | | Surely its a rule of 4? unless you're screening a Treeman. |
Thinking about a Treeman hidden behind two unskilled lines is awesome |
|
|
C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 14:38 |
|
| Leilond wrote: | | Tantibus wrote: | | Surely its a rule of 4? unless you're screening a Treeman. |
Thinking about a Treeman hidden behind two unskilled lines is awesome |
Its called an opponent with Claw. |
|
|
Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 14:53 |
|
| C3I2 wrote: | | Leilond wrote: | | Tantibus wrote: | | Surely its a rule of 4? unless you're screening a Treeman. |
Thinking about a Treeman hidden behind two unskilled lines is awesome |
Its called an opponent with Claw. |
Sad... a scared treeman is sad  |
|
|
Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 15:24 |
|
I like to put my (skilled) Treeman or Deathroller into the second line of defense, simply because it does hold/protect the center pretty reliably there and I have better positioning options in my turn (admittedly it sometimes means to go for it). |
_________________
.
 |
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 15:39 |
|
My treemen don't hide from claw. Be my guest, commit 3-4 players to taking down that player who could take root and do nothing for the rest of the drive anyway. They are outstanding at creating space for the wardancers.
| JanMattys wrote: | LOL
Interesting distinction, especially when you're the one defining what is fun and what is not.
MinMaxing is exactly what you are doing. Negative connotation or not, that's irrelevant. But your approach is the textbook definition for it, even if you are not a 1100 tv box dwarf team.
You are advertising a building philosophy that proposes rules that make your team
a) tv efficient
while
b) likely to get games against teams philosophically or mechanically inadequate to match it
That's minmaxing. Deal with it. |
I guess so. If the alternative is to built something tv inefficient then I plead guilty. I think the term is better used to describe behaviour designed to exploit a system. In box, your opponent is selected for you based on a system. Understanding that matchmaking system makes min-maxxing effective.
Bloodbowl is not a balanced game, and it probably never will be. The game is no longer under development, but more importantly it is based off of a simple D6 system. There just aren't enough rungs on the ladder to make the small tweaks needed to make races roughly equivalent. The difference between AG3 and AG4 is immense. Not having an AG3.5 makes it really hard to balance human catchers with black orcs with pro elf catchers.
So what does Blood Bowl do to balance teams? Team Value. You can either look at Team Value as a side effect of playing Blood Bowl the RPG, where you skill up your "players" when they "level", or you can look at it as a limited resource to be spent on skills, stats and upgrades to the basic lineman chassis (extra positional players).
I take the latter approach. |
|
|
Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 15:46 |
|
It's minmaxing. It's not good or bad, that's it
Always refusing some "fun" developements because "not efficent", and you have not fun if you have a suboptimal team, it's minmaxing, and it's not bad "per se". There are various degree of "minmaxing". One thing is trying to make the race that you like as strong as possible. A different matter is choosing a race because it's efficent at some TV and "artificially" keep the team around that TV. The first is a "natural minmaxing", the second is "exploiting the system" and I understand someone (like me) can find it "not nice" or "out of the spirit of the game" or "not as the game was intended to be played"
But both are minmaxing for me |
|
|
awambawamb
Joined: Feb 17, 2008
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 16:33 |
|
| Rat_Salat wrote: | | My treemen don't hide from claw. Be my guest, commit 3-4 players to taking down that player who could take root and do nothing for the rest of the drive anyway. They are outstanding at creating space for the wardancers. |
...I'll be watching you to see this epic moment, but don't pick! ^^ |
_________________
"la virtù sta nel cielo e nella terra, ma anche nelle nuvole e nelle stelle"
|
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 21, 2015 - 16:54 |
|
| Leilond wrote: | | But both are minmaxing for me |
Okay. Let me pose a question to you then. How about these guys? Here we have pretty well the antithesis of what I normally try to do with high elves. Since losing 3 positional players in one game, the team has been rebuilding and currently sits with:
1 Sure Hands thrower
2 Blodge Blitzers
1 Blodge Catcher
1 superstar leaping sacker
8 linemen, 2 with blodge and 1 with block
So the first thing that jumps out is that the team doesn't have any stats or doubles anywhere. Even the "superstar" sacker is just a catcher with a series of GA skills. He comes in at a very efficient 190tv, and is basically a wrestle wardancer.
Is this team min-maxxed? Did I plan to sit in the 1500tv High Elf sweetspot, or is this just the natural development of a high elf team that got too high and was bashed back down to middle-tv? I can promise you, this isn't what I would like them to look like.
Blodge is pretty powerful. When you have six blodgers and a leaping wrestle sacker, you're going to have a chance against most 1500tv teams, so long as you avoid Dwarves or Chaos Dwarves. If you sit in gamefinder long enough you will eventually get a Chaos/Orc/Lizardman opponent with no tackle that you can soundly thrash and rack up a win with next to no effort.
Now, what if that same Chaos/Orc/Lizardman team has a tacklepomber? Well now I have to think. First off, I'm AV8, so I can stand up to tacklepomb a bit better. I've got no mighty blow of my own, but I have a bench. Am I getting a babe? I know that blitzer is going to remove 2-3 of my elves over the course of the game. How much more tackle and mighty blow does he have? Is he mixing in skills that are going to prevent me from scoring, like stand firm ST4 guys for the wide zones, or diving tackle skinks? Does he have any wrestle? How much guard? Do I think I can leap in and strip the ball?
If I think I can win, I take the game. Pixel-hugging doesn't come into play unless I'm playing a fluff project (like my two wood elf teams).
I would honestly prefer a blind matchmaking system like blackbox, but unfortunately bloodbowl is not well-balanced. In box, this team would probably face 1500tv sweet-spotted chaos dwarves and be summarily obliterated. This is a ranked AV8 elf team, and it has no money in the treasury. I had to play a series of games with only a single blitzer and catcher because I couldn't even afford to buy replacements. I actually don't care if my teams get bashed to pieces, I care when I can't even afford to buy rookies to replace them.
If you want good games in ranked, you need to make sure your teams are socially acceptable. Generally that means limiting the amount of bash on your teams to what other coaches feel is an acceptable level. This is a reaction to bad game balance (spiraling expenses, rookie replacement costs, piling on). Fortunately, in ranked we can self-moderate. You can build your team to hose elves/bash and then wait for an unsuspecting victim to come along, or you can follow the unwritten code of ranked and get games all day. Whatever you do, making the most of your TV budget is smart play. You can call it min-max if you like. |
|
|
|
|
| |
Conceding v Goblins/...
Search
