49 coaches online • Server time: 23:53
Forum Chat
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Creating a custom to...goto Post ramchop takes on the...goto Post NBFL Season 32: The ...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2015 - 22:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Stats help both a lot, but they don't need them the same way other rosters do. Because vamps already have both st4 and ag4, and slann have already ag4, and such broad skill access they can make up for missing some stats.

I'm just saying, I've seen really good vamp/slann teams that may only have one or two stats, they are not as reliant on them as other rosters are.

Elfs may have all the AG4 in the world, but they have no ST, and they struggle to get guard, so high TV teams that have both ST4 and guard can really lock out elfs (also zons, and humans to a degree, though they can add guard more easily) from being able to do any kind of a blocking game. Add a ST4 elf and a few guards and all of a sudden the elfs are a lot more scary.

Same for low AG teams when they can add that AG4, makes them a lot more scary.

The point being that you cannot rely on adding stats to a team, some rosters don't need the stats as much as others to still be effective as TVs go up.
Stonetroll



Joined: Jun 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2015 - 22:39 Reply with quote Back to top

One of the fun and interesting things about playing tourneys is that you have to make your team be able to take on all kinds of opponents. Especially the tier 1 stuff that you are quite certainly familiar with. If you are short on time, elf teams are certainly easiest and fastest to build, both for easier getting games in ranked as well as how you can easily spread your spp as you wish. But even though skilling up players for the inevitable elfballing games is tempting, you might want to think about what skill rolls are going to help when you run into the inevitable bash teams.

Its also very good to have a clear plan of the entire team you want to have, in a way the players fill out all kinds of roles you will need, and create a synergy where the team is more powerful that simply looking at individual players. For example my WO winning nurgles hit a power peak just on time for the tournament, before the inevitable decay hit them (bad pun I know). But in the end it is also up to luck, both on the pitch and in the skill rolls.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2015 - 22:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:
Bghandras, I love that list.

I'll put it 1:1 like that in my guide with your nametag on it if you don't mind.

Cool, no problem. Please!

Wreckage wrote:
Like... nr. 5... what makes a proper killer...

Depends on the team. You can reasonably expect 1 double, so a Mighty Blow is enough for an elf. On the other hand you can expect the proper killstack with the Chaos dwarf.

Wreckage wrote:
what the dedicated carrier needs..
Again, team dependent. Sure hands is absolutely needed. Good mix of movement and agility is needed. So take all stat increases with a carrier. Block is a must, and dodge is too. Dodge is a double though for many rosters...

Wreckage wrote:
what are other common types?

Blitzer subtypes (1 or 2 is needed, no more): killer, surfer, sacker
ballhandler: runner, 1turner, retriever (again, you should not have all 3.)
kicker
dp-er

This is extremely team dependent anything beyond this point. Especially the number of specialists. Elves have other needs and capabilities as norse, or orcs. (Tacklepomb vs Oneturning.) The thing is that you will not have all the specialist, nor do you need them. (Inducements would punish you for your TV if you had them all.)


Last edited by bghandras on Apr 25, 2015 - 22:49; edited 1 time in total
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2015 - 22:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I guess looking at some tournament winners and what they have or generally what teams get far in tournaments I see a pattern in those kinds of things:

You need a one-turn-scorer, ideally natural, but unnatural will do. If you don't have anything that is already a big disadvantage against anyone who has it.

A fouler is also kinda sort of necessary just because a lot of games are decided on the ability to take single opponent players out of the game.

The carrier should have at least ag4, Block, Dodge, Sure Hands, no matter the race:

There are so many ways to get through a line these days and if there is anyone with Strip you really need sure hands. Block and Dodge to not get knocked over on a regular block and Dodge ag4, so that you can easily move with the ball when you are tagged.

A player to use to tag, so someone who really does have Diving Tackle, Blodge, SS(or Sf) (not shadowing) but better two.

At least one guarder, but better two.

The dedicated dmg-dealer must have Tackle.

There must be a sacker on the team and he should have some way (high ag, BT, gaze, leap) to get through a line and get to the carrier.

Three position control players to stop unnatural OT-scores.

Wanting to obtain all this stuff for a major would be for me largely independend on the race I play. I'm not sure I'd need anything else.

But getting all those things is already seriously hard.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2015 - 22:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I am pretty sure that you don't need all you listed. I would say that if you have none of the above, then no chance. You don't really need a sacker if you can kill the opposing team. I am pretty sure many tacklepomber would switch tackle to claw, and use frenzy as pseudo tackle. Guarder and tagger are not needed, but you could build a strategy having some.

You absolutely need at least 2 out of those 3:
1. Decent killer
2. Decent ball carrier
3. 1rutner
Which means all elf teams without 2*double (pomb) needs 1turner. (Ball carrier will be available.)
It also means that the str rosters need a decent ball handler with stat and double to fit the criteria above.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2015 - 23:03 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
I am pretty sure that you don't need all you listed. I would say that if you have none of the above, then no chance. You don't really need a sacker if you can kill the opposing team. I am pretty sure many tacklepomber would switch tackle to claw, and use frenzy as pseudo tackle. Guarder and tagger are not needed, but you could build a strategy having some.

Neither of us has actually won any majors so we are like blind people talking of color. Smile
I tend to look at it like: When you have something like CPOMB you have a winning strategy. When you have a sacker, you have a winning strategy and so on. When you have... just a carrier but no way to defend you don't have a proper team. But to win a major you sort of need more than a winning strategy.. you kinda need a plan a) a plan b) and a plan c) strategy for the team depending on what the opponent is and how the game goes.

So if I have a bashy team, it's great when I can carnage my way through, but when that doesn't work I think I sort of need another out.

Sure, on a day to day basis my opponents will panic and I kinda get away with just going for those little openings that present themselves, but when you're dealing with one of those stone cold super coaches you just sometimes grind through a game, do everything right and at the end of the game you look at the score and realize it's 1:2 and you just lost...

So I really feel that.. bash teams may have the greatest potential but against those uber teams you'll eventually need a little more than just one cas per turn...
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2015 - 23:12 Reply with quote Back to top

The thing is that plan B, plan C, etc all have a cost of TV which you give to the opponent in inducement money, and opponent can then decide whether he enhances his plan A with that, or create a plan B, plan C, etc. My point is that you don't need to plan for everything. Maximizing your chances does not mean you need to have bigger agility, bigger strength, etc. You wont be better in any aspect.

So for every item you add onto the list cost something. It is not for free. There is no feature which gives you something, but does not take away something in exchange. You should not have all. Fair question is how many of those you need? What utilisation has a 2nd killer who usually does not blitz (thus less effective than the 1st one), and how does that compare to inducement money? 1st blitzer is much much better than any inducement. But what about 40% of that? Is it still better than inducement money? Maybe better. But what about opposing teams expected utility? There is no clear cut answer, but there is always a cost of each add-on.

_________________
Image
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2015 - 23:24 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
There is no clear cut answer, but there is always a cost of each add-on.

Thanks, you have really been extremly helpful.

One question I have also often been struggeling with is whether to induce money to for instance compensate for the lack of a wiz or babes with own money and by using to counter the advantages of the underdog....
I found that for me the answer was mostly no, but i was never sure if i made the right choice.

I was always afraid of my opponent stocking up with powerful stars when leaving him too much money.
In retrospective I must say I feel that stars probably make the bigger difference at low or mid tv while wizards and babes make a bigger difference vs high tv when the stars arent better anymore than regular players.

One more question I'd like you to ask would be: Do you think your strategy would change with an outlook on league? In terms where you want to ultimatively go with a team?

@Stonetroll, any insight on the argument I'm having with bghandras from you is also very welcome. Smile (Specialised winning strategy VS playing with a backup plan at the expense of much higher TV)


Last edited by Wreckage on Apr 25, 2015 - 23:36; edited 2 times in total
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2015 - 23:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, it's more important to know how your team wins, and then have the tools on your team which accomplish that goal.

Are you about one turning and surviving attrition? You don't even need a killer. Are you about winning attrition and rolling over the opponent in the 2nd half with massive numbers? You don't even need a ball handler.

Of course those things you don't need can still help, because not every matchup is going to play out the way you plan it. But if you try to do too many things you will risk losing to the team which does it's one thing better than you can do your many things who takes advantage of their inducements to stop you.

I think what's necessary to compete is to have whatever specialized tool that allows you to win games. Now for some coaches that tool is just their ability Smile For most of us though, it's a specific tactic which works based off of the players you have built, or lucked into via stat ups.

What's important is to know how you need to play your team, and not deviate (too far) from that style. So building is also knowing what the 'style' that works for your chosen race is.
DukeTyrion



Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 25, 2015 - 23:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:

One question I have also often been struggeling with is whether to induce money to for instance compensate for the lack of a wiz or babes with own money and by using to counter the advantages of the underdog....


If you are the highest TV, it's almost always best to pay 150k for a wizard (cash allowing), as not other inducement gives so much bang for the buck (let alone the way it can change your opponents play style)
Rat_Salat



Joined: Apr 22, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 26, 2015 - 04:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:

You need a one-turn-scorer, ideally natural, but unnatural will do. If you don't have anything that is already a big disadvantage against anyone who has it.

A fouler is also kinda sort of necessary just because a lot of games are decided on the ability to take single opponent players out of the game.

The carrier should have at least ag4, Block, Dodge, Sure Hands, no matter the race:.

A player to use to tag, so someone who really does have Diving Tackle, Blodge, SS(or Sf) (not shadowing) but better two.

At least one guarder, but better two.

The dedicated dmg-dealer must have Tackle.

There must be a sacker on the team and he should have some way (high ag, BT, gaze, leap) to get through a line and get to the carrier.

Three position control players to stop unnatural OT-scores.


Wardancers tick at least half of these boxes.

If you really want all that stuff Wreckage, I'd reckon the easiest way would be to start a wood elf team and cycle wardancers until you have a GarciRaider, Vindaloo, or even my own Tex.

Now, I don't need to teach you about odds, you're going to get a +ST roll on your wardancer 1 in 36 times. If we cycle the boring ones by simply playing aggressively with them, you're going to get a +ST roll eventually. +AG is even more common, and while the +ST, +AG variants are probably astronomically rare, eventually one will come along.

Once you have said player, the supporting cast is pretty easy. Tacklepombing linemen are nice, but pretty uncommon. Stats on catchers are nice, but they can get by with basic skills. If your second wardancer has mighty blow all you have to do is spend a few games skilling 3 blodge lineman and there's your tournament team.

Oversimplified? Maybe. But if I can do it, you sure as hell can, and you've got two potions to keep your hero alive.

Building a bash team takes significantly longer, and losing a key black orc or whatever can set you back months. A wood elf team builds in days.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 26, 2015 - 04:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Rat_Salat wrote:

If you really want all that stuff Wreckage, I'd reckon the easiest way would be to start a wood elf team and cycle wardancers until you have a GarciRaider, Vindaloo, or even my own Tex.


I'd not even be so ambitious to expect a sacker to be st4... When you got Wrestle, Strip and Leap your odds are pretty good already... respectively Wrestle, Tackle, Leap... maybe along with the ominous ag5...

I never really believed in cycling through players, especially not with woodies, just because they are so damn expensive and hoping for multiple stat ups on a key player would seem out of this world ambitious to me.
I mean over the years I had circumstances happen where very good players appeard but I don't think I ever managed to plan this.

I found that having passers with +ag for instance is so damn overwhelmingly awesome, it regularly at least doubles my winning odds.
It's just that because I'm so damn pessimistic that I never use passers in the first place and therefore they usually don't happen to get +ag.

And the two doubles to get a good woodie basher.. I'd also be waay too pessimistic for that... but thats just it...

You could use any race and it would carry you two thirds of the way but how do you complete that one aspect you don't have?

Anyways, I'll take that strategy under advisement and possibly add them under open environment strategies... Cycling in league would seem somewhat insane. Smile
BillBrasky



Joined: Feb 15, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 26, 2015 - 04:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. And hear the lamentation of their women.

Oh wait. Wrong thread Very Happy
happygrue



Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Post   Posted: Apr 26, 2015 - 05:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Rat_Salat wrote:

Now, I don't need to teach you about odds, you're going to get a +ST roll on your wardancer 1 in 36 times. If we cycle the boring ones by simply playing aggressively with them, you're going to get a +ST roll eventually. +AG is even more common, and while the +ST, +AG variants are probably astronomically rare, eventually one will come along.


How many Wardancers do I need to cycle before I can end up with one that has kick?

_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!
Image
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 26, 2015 - 05:34 Reply with quote Back to top

happygrue wrote:
Rat_Salat wrote:

Now, I don't need to teach you about odds, you're going to get a +ST roll on your wardancer 1 in 36 times. If we cycle the boring ones by simply playing aggressively with them, you're going to get a +ST roll eventually. +AG is even more common, and while the +ST, +AG variants are probably astronomically rare, eventually one will come along.


How many Wardancers do I need to cycle before I can end up with one that has kick?


If the infinite universe theory is true then you already have!

You even took it as his first skill after he got niggled Smile
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic