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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 07:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Are team skillz underappreciated? Looking around, skills like Leader, kick and kick off return are fairly uncommon (relative to how utterly great thay are) and often only taken once a team is well established. However I would argue they give the biggest bang for buck, even on near rookie teams.

Leader for example is the most TV efficient reroll any team can have.
Kick makes all the difference on defensive drives, whether your team is fast or slow.
Kick off return makes a huge difference in not being put on the back foot when receiving and the other team gets a good kick, or worse, a blitz kick off. On top of tbat you often get a free chance to catch the ball saving rerolls or complete fails.

My theory is that being team skills, they are rarely taken because they dont benefit the individual player much.

Are team skills the most underrated ones? Are there other underrated skills?

Grod.

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Bobs



Joined: Feb 26, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 07:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Anything that's a once or twice a game skill will be low priority no matter the benefit it gives when its used. Especially when they don't save you from, or cause, damage.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 08:14 Reply with quote Back to top

I love playing Elves and Skaven with kick. Keeps the ball in play and accentuates the defensive Kickoff events.
JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 09:29 Reply with quote Back to top

I know someone who took Kick as a legend skill on a player that wouldn't benefit much from a normal skill and he got slagged to death in the forums... so yeah.

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Roland



Joined: May 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 09:35 Reply with quote Back to top

isn't guard a team skill kind of?
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 09:50 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't really believe in Leader, at least in the Fumbbl environment. But I don't really share your perception, I see a lot of people taking it, even on doubles that could be put to better use.

Kick is great but I think that on very Rookie-ish teams it's more important to get the basics going: At least 4 guys with Block, at least one guy with MB, at least one guy with Tackle, some Dodge on AG teams and some Guard on ST teams. Each of those contribute more than Kick in the beginning.

All imho of course.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 09:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Roland wrote:
isn't guard a team skill kind of?


Yes in a way I agree with that. Its also why I think some people prefer MB to Guard - they see how many more casualties they can get on that player with MB, not taking into account how many more casualties the REST of your team will make with Guard, due to being able to throw more and better blocks.

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Macabeo



Joined: Feb 13, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 12:45 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think Leader and Kick are underrated at all. Kick is sometimes neglected in my opinion, but I like the fact that there's no clear consensus about it.

Kick-Off Return is certainly less popular, but still somewhat common in the slowest teams.

Now, passing skills... much like Guard they can be considered team skills, yet they are seen by many as subpar at best. In particular, I think Hail Mary Pass is sooooo underappreciated. Sure, as an offensive option it's gimmicky, but being able to punt the ball down the field when you know you're going to lose it is invaluable. Paying 20k to have the option to avoid a TD against you is a steal, and it has other uses too. Perfect 2nd or 3rd skill for a ball carrier with P access if you're not going down the pure thrower route.
Kam



Joined: Nov 06, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 13:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Bobs wrote:
Anything that's a once or twice a game skill will be low priority no matter the benefit it gives when its used. Especially when they don't save you from, or cause, damage.


And that's a shame since touchdowns also happen once or twice a game and they make the difference between a win and a loss. Very Happy

Kickers can really screw your opponent if you have a fast team like rats or pygmies and/or are up against a slow or low agility team.

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 13:12 Reply with quote Back to top

One could argue that Mb is also a team skill, as any casualty race tend to snowball. With that said I never intend to take a skill for a player, but I try maximizing the team first and foremost. With that approach I tend to take core skills, as those help the team immediately, and in every situation.
The life cycle of my players are quite short, I usually don't have legend or super star on most teams, as they are not protected, but play for the team. If the super pomber should absolutely mark a potential blitzer in order to secure the win, I will do so.
So the specialist skills don't accumulate in my teams. I take them sometimes, but they tend not to stick around for long.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 16:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Leader is a pretty pointless skill unless you are trying to sweetspot and keep TV low, but since those kinds of teams are largely frowned upon I don't think you see leader as much anymore. Of course it shows up on high TV teams where the player in question sometimes just doesn't have a good option at that point. Dwarf runners who can't roll doubles/stats are a player you see it on, same for orc throwers, and even maybe skaven throwers.

That you also see it on elf throwers is just silly though, but hey, that you see elf throwers in the first place is silly Smile

Kick is different though, you should see it quite a bit, many teams have linemen who don't really benefit from having any skills, so taking a 20k hit on one of them and taking kick instead of block isn't such a big deal. Then, as mentioned, you have the speed teams, where being able to control the ball for defense (let alone blitz) is very important, so elfs and skavens should see it pop up on a lineman here and there, even though, at least for elfs, going blodge is still 'better'.

However, as Verminardo said, it's not that great on young teams, but once you have a few 3+ skill players it's worth considering on the next lineman.

Kick off return doesn't apply usually other than for dwarfs and orcs who's runner/thrower don't roll doubles. Occasionally I've seen it also on ghouls, since ghouls kind of run out of skills after block/sidestep/sure hands. But most fast teams just have enough skills on their players to keep on taking value rather than wasting a slot on kor, since it has the least impact of the three skills mentioned. With the caveat being that for low MA teams (so khemri fall here too I guess) getting to the ball more easily, if not getting a 'free' catch roll on it is pretty important.
akaRenton



Joined: Apr 15, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 19:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I love having a kick zombie for the cranberries, or a kick fling on my halflings. Bloody brilliant skill.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 19:47 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:


Kick is different though, you should see it quite a bit, many teams have linemen who don't really benefit from having any skills, so taking a 20k hit on one of them and taking kick instead of block isn't such a big deal. Then, as mentioned, you have the speed teams, where being able to control the ball for defense (let alone blitz) is very important, so elfs and skavens should see it pop up on a lineman here and there, even though, at least for elfs, going blodge is still 'better'.

However, as Verminardo said, it's not that great on young teams, but once you have a few 3+ skill players it's worth considering on the next lineman.


This is how I feel too. Having the ball on the ground is a huge boon to Elves and Skaven who actually have a good shot of capitalizing on it with a score. Keeping it in bounds or being able to leverage Perfect Defense or Blitz! with Kick can make some games a cakewalk.
PaddyMick



Joined: Jan 03, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 21:33 Reply with quote Back to top

KOR is good if you want to build and play a dedicated ma6 ag3 thrower. So humans, norse, orcs, pact, and ag2 khemri. This is because after accurate and safe throw there's nothing to help your cause until you get a double for Strong Arm or +ma or +ag
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2015 - 21:40 Reply with quote Back to top

PaddyMick wrote:
KOR is good if you want to build and play a dedicated ma6 ag3 thrower. So humans, norse, orcs, pact, and ag2 khemri. This is because after accurate and safe throw there's nothing to help your cause until you get a double for Strong Arm or +ma or +ag


I wouldn't say it's 'good', but I would agree that there really aren't any significantly better choices.
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