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Longshanks



Joined: Feb 02, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 07:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Tomay wrote:
So what I want to highlight is what my approach is to SWL......


Nice post. Can't comment on the trend thing being a recent returnee & haven't seen much evidence of it myself but just wanted to post my support with the sentiments expressed. As a predominantly paper team player I've been the victim of unnecessary team decimation a few times. Don't and never will, understand the mentality.

Tomay wrote:
If you’re one of these CLAWPOMB guys use the skill stack as a means to secure victory but not to unnecessarily demolish an opponents team. If we have a handful of teams acting like WMDs in this environment, it will kill the league. With the power of these skills comes the responsibility to use them appropriately in this setting. You might even find your overall results improve with some guys left standing every now and again.


I'm one of the CLAWPOMB players Smile (altho I don't have a PO player yet) which I chose to take as a change of pace & playstyle from my usual but I'm with you on their responsible use.

Yes it's a game, yes each to their own etc. etc. but being part of thriving, enjoyable community means respecting others. Else it just turns into a shit heap.

I think we're a long way from that Very Happy
Samaranthae



Joined: Aug 30, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 07:56 Reply with quote Back to top

I think its important to distinguish the difference between what tomay is saying and crying about fouls or clawpomb.

The way i read it the question is. Is it ok to treat a newbie opponent different from how you would treat say... chavo? My answer is yes it is

If you can pants that new guy without him realising how or why your beating him then yeah thats classy. And this means two things to me.

1- When my opponent tells me he just lost because of luck i take that as a compliment (unless i actually got lucky)

2- If i have to go hard at your team that means i respect you and/or your team. And if someone goes hard at my team i take that as a sign of respect.

What i would like to see less of consensus shaming aka. not just one guy calling someone a lucker but everyone else piling on. Its almost reached cyberbullying levels in recent seasons. If someone is consistantly winning there is a reason even if you can't see it.
Longshanks



Joined: Feb 02, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 08:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Grumpsh wrote:
..the cool guy he's so much cooler than you look we're all his friends see how cool he is"


In case anyone missed it, Grumpsh is referring to me here Razz
Semitence



Joined: May 18, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 08:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Grumpsh wrote:
What i would like to see less of consensus shaming aka. not just one guy calling someone a lucker but everyone else piling on. Its almost reached cyberbullying levels in recent seasons. If someone is consistantly winning there is a reason even if you can't see it.


I don't think this happens. Do you have an example?
ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 08:12
FUMBBL Staff
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I'm mostly in agreement.. but.. I like that's there are one or two sheer terror monster teams. Knowing that you are scheduled against a proven high TV killer team is a special event. So stack that CLAWPOMB. Stick it all in one team, and let the nightmares begin.

but just the one team... and Tomay, make sure it's never scheduled against me. Wink
lolvenom



Joined: Jan 27, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 09:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Harden up, it's not called blood bowl without reason.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 11:04 Reply with quote Back to top

If you're at all likely to win your division, it doesn't really make sense to hit the weaker teams too hard, because you just give your real opponents an easier and bigger win over them later. But your real opponents? Them you smash into tiny little bits, obviously. That's how bash teams promote. Later in the season it's polite to keep doing whatever you were doing at the start, though there are clear benefits to going hard out in the last game or two no matter who you're facing. That's more a community spirit moment.

But I fully encourage turn 16 fouling. I will be, so long as there's at least two goblins standing and the first one gets a knockdown. There's a prize for most fouls, you know.

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Dlock



Joined: Mar 08, 2014

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 11:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello.

Quick comment before bed;

"Blaming losses solely on luck." - I am in the other boat, my wins are often to do with luck (like anybody who has seen my SSL lizards in action can justufy) and my losses have been due to bad decicions.

"Deliberate targeting of opposition star players at the expense of good tactical play." - Sometimes it is good tactics to target those star players. Last game I would have been better served taking other teams star out, no matter what cost. Who knows, I might have only lost 4 - 1...

"Spiteful maiming of an opponents team when they have secured a victory." - I might do this if I would have players left and no chance to win. Luckily I usually dont have players and I am too stupid to realise that I cant win.

"Complaining about an opponents play style." - ah, this, I keep these complains to myself but I promise to thee... I am seething inside.

I dont know, but I havent noticed much change in few seasons that I have played here - most of the games are still fun (except againts certain somebody who has something against my wardancers and my lizards) and really challenging to play.

All the best to all (even to certain somebody that I will face very soon...).

- D
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 11:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Rock solid post from Tomay. I support it fully. And even though I'm in my 31st SWL season, I found it very helpful to reflect upon.

I think the following is the core of the matter, and something that SWLers should always try keeping in mind:

Tomay wrote:
this is not the box or ranked, we have a much smaller community and we rely on each other for it to work
Foad



Joined: Sep 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 17:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Allegedly, there is a perception of some players that my team are the resident BigGribblyMonsters of the SWL, and as such I feel I should make a post here in regards to certain elements of Tomay's post.

Tomay makes a great point in regards to a great many things, but I would like people to think about certain aspects of competitiveness.

Tomay wrote:
The culture of the SWL is changing. We’re moving from a competitive but friendly community built on respect and camaraderie and are heading towards a slippery slope of ultra competitiveness, disregard of our opponents and poor sportsmanship. Luckily, we aren’t quite there yet, but I fear that if we continue in this trend we will suffer the same fate of the European and American leagues with lower participation rates and domination by a sub group of ultra competitive players who like to push the boundaries.


I disagree with this. Granted, I've been away and haven't seen the cyber-bullying that Grumpsh has mentioned, but take a look at where the league was 2 years ago. In LII we had 4 divisions and 32 players with numbers on the decline. DC stepped down, and by LX we were back up to 52 over 6 divisions. Not disparaging DC's efforts over the years, but Luo undeniably changed the direction of the league, and based on the participation numbers, it's for the better. I remember the dark old days of OB's claw/RSC teams that would tear you apart and not a word would be mentioned in chat, only to have him take the opportunity vote for your MVP, only for him to give the nod to the dead lino to make it harder for your surviving players to win end of season awards. As a skaven player I remember them well, and where we are now as a sea of rainbows and gumdrops.

Tomay wrote:
Some worrying trends I see emerging are:
- Blaming losses solely on luck.
- Deliberate targeting of opposition star players at the expense of good tactical play.
- Spiteful maiming of an opponents team when they have secured a victory.
- Complaining about an opponents play style.

-Blaming losses on luck.
In my last game against Balle, he made comment about me having had the dice that game, which was nothing short of a fair and apt comment. I'd previously mentioned he'd had a good start and it was good banter about the game itself.

This is something I've picked up from table top over the last few years, where the tendency is to chat about the game far more than in FUMBBL/SWL. As a function of cognitive bias, we as humans often overlook all the POW's as we roll on and only remember the turn ending skills that give us a the moment of though in our opponent's turn as they punish us for the deluded expectation the we could roll 4 dice and have one of them not be a damn skull. Stupid FUMBBL RNG. Almost as bad as Rabid's EucBowl dice.

Something, something, something, Waikikamucao. Something, something, something, Dark Side.

Should we bemoan our dice at the expense of our opponent? No probably not, but it is a game of chance, and there can be a fine line between commentary and whinging.

That said, I'd take my opponents sour lamentations over a cold blank chat screen any day. I could be alone here, but generally speaking, I'm sympathetic to people having bad luck with dice - and will often offer condolences. Just an opinion.

-Deliberate targeting of opposition star players at the expense of good tactical play. I've lost 2 pretty good players this season to Rip, apo, Rip - and both times they were targeted because they were "stars". There's a term for this, I believe it's called "good play".
Having not played much Chaos for a while (online or TT) I've found myself missing the nuances of the positioning this season, and it has cost me 3 games against players who played far better on the day.

As a specific example, last round I decided to be more aggressive with piling on than I am usually. The bodies didn't stack up, and Balle played a great game. To be honest, he deserved to win. Yet it somehow stopped his drive, and somehow led to me scoring a winner in turn 16.

-Spiteful maiming of an opponents team when they have secured a victory.
As a coach who has 111 SWL skaven games and 135 with dark elves, I can say that I've worn my fair share of pastings beyond getting a game decided. It's part of the game, and whilst ever players are rewarded with SPP's, it's reasonable to to attempt to develop your team. That said Tomay has a point for discussion insofar as garbage fouling, but is it a case by case situation? What if one of the monster teams gets shorthanded? With the apo gone, I'll be honest, I expect to get fouled. Someone has to be the sheriff. In my opinion, the same goes for elves and skaven stars too. I feel the adage of "No Quarter Given, None Asked" is appropriate for any competitive league, I'd hate people to dumb down there game for me. I wear being out-fouled this season 16-3 with a badge of honour.

-Complaining about an opponents play style.Stallers, Minmaxers, Foulers, CPOMBers, Elfballers, Handicap Junkies, Stat Freaks... When you're locked into a race it defines your play style. As we've seen of the past few years it has become tribal with stables emerging. I think it adds passion to the game, but a good point to mention to not let it go too far. I think this is a good thing.

Surprising really, as it started with those no-talent pointy eared stocking stuffers.

But yeah, good point. Don't be a douchecanoe about it.

Tomay wrote:
If my opponent is new to the league, the game in general or isn’t very good I will try to secure a victory and get as many SPP out of the game as possible BUT I will also be as friendly and encouraging as possible and try to avoid inflicting any unnecessary damage to their team. I often do this by avoiding fouls where possible and by targeting unskilled players with my blocks to get SPP. Sometimes I offer tactical advice after the game and generally encourage them to engage with the community.


Great point. This goes a long way.

Tomay wrote:
If my opponent’s team is far understrength and in rebuild it’s the same as above. I will try and secure victory first but be mindful of the fact that they are tryng to build their team back up. I don’t want to put an already understrength team back to square one, it doesn’t benefit me in any way and only ruins the enjoyment for someone else.


This is a great idea but it doesn't happen. I had 2 major rebuilds with the skaven, and 1 with the dark elves. People see polite play here as an opportunity missed. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's quite a noble thing to do, but when people came up against me running 8 journeymen, I couldn't hate them for seizing the day.

Tomay wrote:
I always wish my opponent luck, ask how they are doing, thank them for the game and congratulate them if they won.

Amazing point. This is truly where the SWL seperates itself from box and ranked.

Tomay wrote:
If my opponent is a trash talker, rival or a veteran that I know can handle it I will go all out. I am very clear on the people that fall into this category (Faulcon, Balle2000, Luohghcra, etc). I will mercilessly try and take out a legendary player and pull out all the stops to win. That said, I still don’t think I’d totally decimate a team if I was on the verge of pitch clearing or something. You’ve got to know when enough is enough and I want these rivalries to continue.

These are the matches I love, their competitiveness make them special. I'll go as far as extending this circle to TT players I know. I've played a fair bit of Starcraft recently and have a couple of rivalries that are amazing fun. On no occasion have I ever said "Why are you killing my menz?"

Tomay wrote:
If my opponent dishes it out themselves I will happily play without mercy. If they have a reputation for dismantling opposing teams, have multiple clawpombers or are notorious foulers I will give it back to them. Anyone from my opponents team who has a good chance of hurting my guys will be targeted in the name of self preservation. These guys deserve a good drumming every now and again and the coaches are usually accepting of this fact.

Yup. Totally. In every way. With 100+ games as rats and elves, this is the whole reason I wanted to play chaos. With OB and Barre had no predators for so long, and every match they would have would somehow turns into a pillow fight. I think it's up to everyone to be the Sheriff against these teams.

Tomay wrote:
If my opponent is having a good run of luck I try not to take away their enjoyment by moaning and complaining. This is an area I used to be better at and am striving to improve but one that I think is important. If you participate in the SWL you know that runs of luck both ways are inevitable. You also know that you want to enjoy your good runs as much as possible before the inevitable downturn. With this in mind, I try to maintain good sportsmanship, congratulate my opponent and encourage them to enjoy the game. Taking the fun out of it for my opponent would result in a net loss of enjoyment, which hurts the league.

I think most of us could improve at this. Good point.

Tomay wrote:
If my opponent has me beat and I know there is very little I can do, I try and protect my team and make it easy on them to leave me alone. I might leave guys prone, move away from my opposition so as not to present a threat. If you decide to keep flogging a dead horse with a lone gutter runner on -2d blocks, don’t be surprised when he gets booted. I believe that inducements and journeymen have made some players a little careless in the SWL and coaches need to realise when its time to switch from win mode to preservation mode. If your opponent is in preservation mode and not presenting a threat to the result, let them be.

Again this is touching on what has previously been discussed. My safety word is "Teacup".

Tomay wrote:
I will call people out for acting against the interests of the league. If someone is a jerk or pushes the rules a bit I will call them out publicly but aim to keep it friendly in nature. Personal attacks are not ok, ribbing someone for being weak after conceding is. The recent events with Carl is a good example, he was called out for fouling but everyone kept it friendly.

I'll be honest, I didn't think the client supported High Elf fouling.

Tomay wrote:
If you’re one of these CLAWPOMB guys use the skill stack as a means to secure victory but not to unnecessarily demolish an opponents team. If we have a handful of teams acting like WMDs in this environment, it will kill the league. With the power of these skills comes the responsibility to use them appropriately in this setting. You might even find your overall results improve with some guys left standing every now and again.
Oh man, where was this post when OB was playing and Barre was CPOMBing?

But yeah, there's a learning curve in becoming a better Chaos player - which is definitely aided by have people standing up.
------------------------------

So yeah, thankyou to Tomay for getting a good discussion out there, but I don't think it's as doom and gloom as intended. SWL does it better.

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ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 19:22
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Team Challenge - Season LXIII

In a close Match K, last season's wooden spooners FOUL defeat VILLAINS 1.5 to 0.5 and move to the top of the table. Well done to the Horrors of Skye for single handedly taking this match.

There are some very close matches out there being contested. e.g. ALIEN v HAND 2 - 2, with 2 games to go.

There are also some blow outs. e.g. DIBBL Invaders v HAND 0.5 - 5.5 with 6 games to go. What a shame Morgwegian as a Filler can't help out the Invaders. Wink
suttbutt



Joined: Mar 16, 2015

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2016 - 23:47 Reply with quote Back to top

ramchop wrote:
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Team Challenge - Season LXIII

In a close Match K, last season's wooden spooners FOUL defeat VILLAINS 1.5 to 0.5 and move to the top of the table. Well done to the Horrors of Skye for single handedly taking this match.

There are some very close matches out there being contested. e.g. ALIEN v HAND 2 - 2, with 2 games to go.

There are also some blow outs. e.g. DIBBL Invaders v HAND 0.5 - 5.5 with 6 games to go. What a shame Morgwegian as a Filler can't help out the Invaders. Wink


in that DIBBL v HAND game would 2 more wins to HAND award the match that way? being 7/12?

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ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 13, 2016 - 00:22
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DIBBL needs 6 wins out of the 6 remaining games to take that match. 5 wins and a draw would tie it. Anything else and HAND win it.
swladmin



Joined: Sep 22, 2010

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 12:28 Reply with quote Back to top

SWL Season LXIII Round 4 Axe

SWL Premier League

All Clear

Harlequins of Despair Conference

All Clear

Mort Volente Conference

All Clear

Elektric Boogaloo Conference

All Clear

Emily Regional

All Clear

Flippers Jonasson Regional

Hostile Kiddies IV vs Steel Fists of Dorugan - forfeit to Suttbutt
Banner of the Black Stag vs Tharsis Terrors - extension

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DrDiscoStu



Joined: Feb 20, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 12:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Hurry up iiNet, I want to watch the Lizardmen battle in Prem this week!

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