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Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: May 01, 2016 - 19:13 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Stand firm used to keep you upright on failed dodges, with the player's turn ended and you stayed in the same square.

Bring back please.


And before this you got to the sqaure you where dodging to. 3rd edition.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: May 01, 2016 - 19:42 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
Lots of skills in each group are rarely taken compared to the others, in that a lot of skills only work at all for specific positions (like Kick-Off Return or Pass Block) and specific stat combinations that most players do not have. You'd understand if there are zero elves with Break Tackle, and also zero Multiple Block stunties.

So Break Tackle is really only for reasonably fast players with ST >3 and AG <3, but it's really good for them and I always wish I had more in my Ogre teams for instance, because 3+ into a loose cage for a ST 5 blitz on the ball is amazing for +20 TV.

Similary with multiple block, on fling trees it's amazing, especially if they get Block. I'm not super-concerned if no one else takes it, though I like it on ST 5 for hitting the line too.


Alternately, if you make the skills "worth taking" for Chorfs and Nurgs and Lizards then that means all those teams got better at high TV, where they are already the best teams. It's not that they won't take CPOMB, it's that they'll take CPOMB and also be more mobile and harder to get away from and trivially able to hit multiple players in the same turn. That's nuts.


Making them worth taking is the point right? But they still have to replace another skill these players need/want. So you tell me, you take them over MB/PO/Guard/Double/Stats/Block(for some)/Tackle(for some)/Stand Firm...

Essentially these are buffs to ST4 (who all need block at least too) and Big Guys. Elfs could take multiblock (but I don't think dauntless works with it the way someone thinks it does), anyone could take break tackle (which makes some sense to me), but none of that is overpowering, and all of it requires passing up other already proven good skills. And really break tackle doesn't help st4 dodge into a cage, multi block doesn't help st4 do much of anything without tons of assists already in place, and it does basically nothing for ST3.

Grab is the interesting one, but the effect it has vs. dodging out of it is minor, it's like a far far inferior version of diving tackle in the rare instances where that point of MA would actually matter.
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: May 01, 2016 - 20:03 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:

Grab is the interesting one, but the effect it has vs. dodging out of it is minor, it's like a far far inferior version of diving tackle in the rare instances where that point of MA would actually matter.


In my first big league with quality players we had a skill called Rough Tackle that had the same MA penalty. It was by no means overpowered but it was also useful and combined with the present grab I think it is a good skill.

How does dauntless and multiple block work together? Dauntless first, then +2 ST? But even with ½D blocks I think this changed multiple block skill could be useful.
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: May 01, 2016 - 20:15 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:

Alternately, if you make the skills "worth taking" for Chorfs and Nurgs and Lizards then that means all those teams got better at high TV, where they are already the best teams. It's not that they won't take CPOMB, it's that they'll take CPOMB and also be more mobile and harder to get away from and trivially able to hit multiple players in the same turn. That's nuts.


Any sensible change of the rules includes a nerf of CPOMB. And there are cases to be made for many other adjustments. I don't think it is clear how this would affect the teams you mention on high TV but I would find it very interesting to find out. Even more so on lov-mid TV.
Zlefin



Joined: Apr 14, 2005

Post   Posted: May 01, 2016 - 22:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I also want to note agreement with whoever said stalling is most annoying (setting aside the issue of right or wrong, just annoyance) for non-elf teams. If elves are being stalled on, it's not so bad, they can still pull off scary cage-breaking plays even with low numbers. But if it's bash v bash, or human-ish v bash; and you get behind, then there's often very little you can do to stop or disrupt a stall.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: May 01, 2016 - 23:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Tripleskull wrote:
licker wrote:

Grab is the interesting one, but the effect it has vs. dodging out of it is minor, it's like a far far inferior version of diving tackle in the rare instances where that point of MA would actually matter.


In my first big league with quality players we had a skill called Rough Tackle that had the same MA penalty. It was by no means overpowered but it was also useful and combined with the present grab I think it is a good skill.

How does dauntless and multiple block work together? Dauntless first, then +2 ST? But even with ½D blocks I think this changed multiple block skill could be useful.


Well I believe that it depends on the order. So your strength would get raised to match the opponents, but then the opponent would get two more added, so you would always be 2 lower. I don't know if that's a correct interpretation though. Someone probably knows at least how the client handles it, though it's not something I'd imagine anyone has tried.
xnoelx



Joined: Jun 05, 2012

Post   Posted: May 02, 2016 - 04:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Even if it's the other way round (i.e. +2ST then Dauntless roll), the opponents still get assists from each other. So as things stand under CRP, you'll be looking at -2d blocks even if you pass Dauntless. And with the suggested change to Multi, and a block against a cage corner then ball carrier, it would be pass Dauntless to get 1d, then still need to pass again for another 1d (if the first block was a knockdown) or -2d (if no knockdown).

(Unless assists, ofc).

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: May 02, 2016 - 07:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Dauntless says: "The strength of both players is calculated before any defensive or offensive assists, but after all other modifiers."

The +2 ST for facing multiple block is one of those "other modifiers". I don't know how the local client handles it, but Dauntless should help. It would still be a lot of dice to roll for an extra block, but should work OK for ST 4 w/Dauntless at least.

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Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: May 02, 2016 - 07:50 Reply with quote Back to top

xnoelx wrote:
Even if it's the other way round (i.e. +2ST then Dauntless roll), the opponents still get assists from each other. So as things stand under CRP, you'll be looking at -2d blocks even if you pass Dauntless. And with the suggested change to Multi, and a block against a cage corner then ball carrier, it would be pass Dauntless to get 1d, then still need to pass again for another 1d (if the first block was a knockdown) or -2d (if no knockdown).

(Unless assists, ofc).


I believe the skill would mostly be used as a way to clear the way to the ball etc but even getting a 1D block on the ball carrier is worth quite a lot and the chance of it just might force the opposition to score early or deploy another strategy.

The main problem I see with the proposal is, that it might make OTS easier and maybe on the LOS because it would probably mean that you would need to change lineup at times. The OTS is to some extend countered by the grab buff.

Also note that this would be a buff to fend and stand firm because they can counter the multiple blocks
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: May 04, 2016 - 00:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Guys,
coming at this (and by extension CPOMB) from a completely different angle:
To my mind, the only problem with stalling (and one of the few problems with BB) is that the most boring drives/games are the ones where one team gets severely outnumbered.

I was just thinking: What if CPOMB was the same as now, but KOs didn't leave the field. Instead they were stunned for 2 turns. KOs on the LOS (or anywhere else) would still give a major on-pich advantage. But they wouldn't least for a full 8-turn stall.

Wouldn't that make the game a lot more tense.

Now I know that elfs are awesome when there are 11 of them, so this would probably require another anti-elf skill of sorts. As a ripple effect. Plenty of options. But that is a thought for another day.

Cheers
Martin
GoodVybz



Joined: Apr 26, 2016

Post   Posted: May 21, 2016 - 19:39 Reply with quote Back to top

For TV maximization: If bench players contributed less to TV than your top 11 (ranked by Value), more people would use them.

As the rules currently stand, a player on your bench that may not get used, is not the same advantage as the cost of 2-4 extra skills you could wind up going against on the opposing team's roster (exception being fragile teams with cheap players).

It's not just that people want to min/max, it's that the value of a bench player is not the same as the value of a starter. In real sports, we don't generally don't pay premium salaries to backups.
GoodVybz



Joined: Apr 26, 2016

Post   Posted: May 21, 2016 - 19:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Also - by loading your squad with inexperienced backups, you are further diluting your MVPs and weakening the chance that they land on a positional.

Random MVPs could probably be handled better (maybe some formula for productivity taking casualties, scores, or clutch plays into account)
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