Doofr
Joined: Nov 04, 2015
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 Posted:
Jul 26, 2016 - 18:51 |
 
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Hi, im launching a Secret Roster League mid september and i have few question for you garion.
If you prefer we can do that in pm:
So if im not wrong we could only play thoses rosters : Cyborc, Referee, Spawn of Chaos, Malal, werewolf if we had an admin in the league i want to run?
And what about the Tzeentch Teams , if someone want to play it, he had to contact an admin anytime prior to playing your game and they will roll in IRC and change the Changelings stats and starter skills before the game begins, like statued in the roster description?
If yes, why we cant do the same with the malal team by exemple?By contacting an admin after the game?
And what are the rosters are you thinking to perhaps modify until that date?:p |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Jul 26, 2016 - 18:55 |
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I think you need to bribe a site admin for that.
They're usually pretty busy... |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Jul 26, 2016 - 18:59 |
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These rosters aren't currently playable according to their design. Christer might add some functionality in the future to allow league admins to do this kind of stuff. |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Jul 26, 2016 - 19:04 |
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Yeah, it would be great if group admins could do this work. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 26, 2016 - 19:20 |
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yeah we just cant play with those rosters currently. Tzeentch teams we are using but without the changeling for know. any progress on these issues and I will blog about it
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jul 26, 2016 - 20:35 |
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Hey, does anybody have the kung-fu to do stats on Elementals post-nerf? If you took out those games with two Incarnates, what do the stats look like?
My sense after playing Earth Elementals with one (Earth) Incarnate for ten games is that they're as good as the coach, up to an upper-tier-2 (1.5?) level. People have mostly been offering me games with similarly flawed teams, and my two losses have been against simply better rosters (Moulder, which is about as good as any Stunty roster could hope to be, and Earth Elementals with the broken old Water Incarnate). Not having an Apothecary, the team is more like handicapped Undead than handicapped Dwarfs.
Earth Elemental is less likely to be removed from the pitch than a Zombie, but more likely to be killed/retired. He costs 50% (20k) more, and the free AG and Stand Firm are nice to have but not a wash at rookie level. He does get free doubles (if you're like me and spend doubles on S skills), so after 2 or 3 skills he's a lot better than most Zombies. If he makes it there....
Air Elemental is a slightly cheaper Dodgeless Ghoul. He has Leap and Very Long Legs, which together would make a nice 3rd skill on a Ghoul. And he has P access. There is nothing that fills the role of a Wight. Instead there are up to 4 6338 players with GA access, two with SS and two with Frenzy. If you roll doubles on them and keep them alive for 3 skills, you have a nice non-regenerating Wight. For as long as you can keep him. Between Ghouls and Wights and Air, Fire, and Water Elementals, the Ghouls and Wights with their basic skills and S access win. If somehow you manage to keep your Elemental "positionals" alive and roll a few well-placed doubles, it becomes a wash.
Incarnate Elementals of Earth are +30k Mummies with Loner. They don't Regen, but AV10 is similar (vulnerable to Claw, but fewer stuns and removals). They have SF instead of MB, which is a wash after 2 skills (3 if you get Block on the way). But they're 0-1, which is huge. 2 Mummies really makes the Undead team.
RRs are much cheaper. This doesn't make up for the deficiencies, but it is nice to have. It makes them rather decent in open play, where their cheap positionals mean they develop TV slowly, so they're always low-TV for their age. So they do have a sweet spot, probably in the low-mid TV range. Traditional "sweet spotting" doesn't work because you can't protect your best guys with the Apoth or Regen, but if you just get your cheaper Earth Elementals in the way, they can do a better job of protecting your more valuable menz than Zombies can, because SF means no follow-up to lend an assist. They cycle fast for AV9, but not so fast you can't afford to replace them (I've lost 2 in 10 games). Because of the price of the linos, I'm running only 12 men, which feels like "just enough". |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Jul 26, 2016 - 21:02 |
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| Garion wrote: | yeah we just cant play with those rosters currently. Tzeentch teams we are using but without the changeling for know. any progress on these issues and I will blog about it
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how about inventing your own changeling? Make a generic big guy but instead of access to Strength skills, give them access to only mutations.
how about
5M 5St 2Ag 9Av loner bonehead TTM Mighty blow tackle (something unique) skill access: M doubles GAPS |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 26, 2016 - 21:03 |
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I find the comparison of elementals to undead you make very odd. Its like comparing Chaos to halflings.
For me water and earth are top tier teams by the BBRC definition of tiers although this is very broad. I think you are severely underrating how strong mass Stand Firm is on Av9 players with an Av10 big in the middle IMO. The lack of core skills in early games can be their downfall for sure but i don't think the apo thing is a big deal really. Their record hasn't actually changed post nerf, they are both achieving pretty much the same level of success. But the sample size of around 100 games with each race is too small to say anything really. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jul 26, 2016 - 21:28 |
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I was mostly comparing Earth Elementals to Undead. Water Elementals are like nothing else, at all. Air Elementals are like a pretty silly idea. Fire Elementals are like an exercise in masochism.
| Garion wrote: | | For me water and earth are top tier teams by the BBRC definition of tiers although this is very broad. |
Yeah, k. I just think that they're a team defined as much by their flaws as by their virtues. You may have observed that I've kept playing them. They're intriguing.
Water Elementals seem like they could be very powerful or very frustrating, depending on how your games go.
| Quote: | | I think you are severely underrating how strong mass Stand Firm is on Av9 players with an Av10 big in the middle IMO. The lack of core skills in early games can be their downfall for sure but i don't think the apo thing is a big deal really. |
The "Apo thing" is not a big deal in W/L record (for Earth), but it does change how they develop. Certainly, it's not a money problem for Earth Elementals, but it should mean a lot of turnover among the team's better players, especially as TV rises and their opponents build killers. This won't be huge in open play, but in a league it could be daunting. Mass SF is fun, so long as your AV holds. Some opponents care about it more than others do.
| Quote: | | Their record hasn't actually changed post nerf, they are both achieving pretty much the same level of success. But the sample size of around 100 games with each race is too small to say anything really. |
Yeah. I think they'll post a pretty good record, because they're attractive to the kind of coach who enjoys that sort of thing. I wouldn't direct a novice coach to them. Not enough basic skills. |
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Last edited by JackassRampant on %b %26, %2016 - %21:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 26, 2016 - 21:41 |
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Air elementals a silly idea? They're basically slann.
I would say earth elementals are unlike anything really I certainly wouldn't compare them to undead. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jul 26, 2016 - 21:44 |
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| Garion wrote: | | Air elementals a silly idea? They're basically slann. |
AV7 and no Apoth. Air Elementals die when the wind shifts the wrong way.
| Quote: | | I would say earth elementals are unlike anything really I certainly wouldn't compare them to undead. |
That's fair. I was looking for the closest comparison, and I'll admit that any comparison to Elementals is something of a stretch. But they're more like Undead than they are like any other team, I stand by that. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 26, 2016 - 21:49 |
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Air elementals will certainly be tricky and like slann will be very squishy, but they have very good average ma and mobile big guy. Don't forget they can have 2 of each of the other elementals to beef them up and take hits. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jul 26, 2016 - 21:51 |
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This is true, and a good coach might make it work by soaking up hits with Water and Earth elementals and cultivating some special players. I don't think they're unplayable, or even borderline unplayable (cough, fire), but they're not as good as Slann in my book. They're 50% squishier and 100% less Apothable. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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ahalfling
Joined: Aug 16, 2008
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Jul 26, 2016 - 22:34 |
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| GronxWild wrote: | | i hate them but i feel like the team needs them, don t you halfling? |
The bear did basically nothing, and I constantly felt like I was 1-2 players short in the area where the ball was. (In addition to the 110k of TV he represents.)
And granted, I'm talking about one game on top of the 5 I played at the beginning, but I don't see a matchup where he helps more than a cat would, let alone a wolf. Against strength teams, he's just going to get knocked over. Against agility teams, he's going to spend the whole drive standing far away from the action. (Unless he gets knocked over.)
He's not even a wood elf treeman. Treemen don't do the thing that the team actually does, but at least they provide survivability, don't go stupid and lose their tackle zones, and are harder to knock over. Or maybe a rat ogre on a skaven team is a better comparison -- except that the rat ogre is hard to dodge away from, moves pretty well, and doesn't go stupid. So if those players are strictly optional, where does that leave the much worse bears?
Weres are just as much a non-violent, block-minimizing, "pop the ball loose and get out of there" kind of team as those two -- maybe even more so than skaven, who tend to at least build their stormvermin to do damage. I guess that some players might choose to do the same with a werewolf or two, if they rolled doubles. Even so, you're left with a team that has no interest in lining up against the opposition or forming a cage in the middle of the field, and those are the only scenarios where I can imagine bears being relevant. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 27, 2016 - 09:27 |
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I'm going to get in on this were team fun.
to me in theory bowl the big guy is important. will be interesting to see how it pans out |
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