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Nightbird



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2016 - 14:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Though I've not played a ton of games, so far I've enjoyed Four Nations & Snakemen the most, but have started an Engineers team & have played a few w/ the Cathay lineup.

On Four Nations, AG3 makes it a little risky, but being able to dump off to anyone team mate= fun +1. They lack the primary skills of block/dodge at start though so they perfrom average & will likely be an interestingly skilled human team that will perform similarly, but not as well at high TV as CRP Humans. Though lacking an Ogre (can we fit one in there somehow? Very Happy)) costs them some needed punch at higher TV. Icons are nice, but kinda bland. Maybe some of their shirts are striped or each positional has a different symbol on it's shirt?

On Snakemen, its really hard to distinguish the positionals from each other & the icons seem rather large considering they are mostly 3ST players. Shrink the icons, aside from the Constrictors, & use different shades of green to make the positionals stand out. The Mesmers could have some type of rainbow headress or a spiral effect on their eyes to simulate a hypno effect. The Constrictors are fine w/ the skull helmets setting them apart. The Runners could be a lighter shade of green to represent quickness & maybe give them a stripe somewhere to suggest streamlining? I think the team would be better served if you could have 0-4 Constrictors & 0-2 Runners. What I can say, surely, about play is that hypno gaze is a nice bonus & along w/ having cumulative prehensile tail + tentacles makes this team tough to move around on. Big problem is they are slow & AV7/8 w/ only 2 strength positionals & no 'true' starting skills which makes them difficult to start out with. I think setting screens & solid skill choices are the keys to this team. I'd like to see mutation access on more players as well. Being that they worship a chaos god & all & seem to need a bit more edge to be competitive. I doubt this team performs very well at higher TV unless there are tweaks/changes.

Engineers will suffer until they aquire the 50k bribe coding, but I like the concept & will continue to use them for a bit.

I've only played a few games, but Cathay seem like they could be an interesting team w/ the monks having GSA access & I can say fend+SS is pretty sweeet to start. The Foo statue is a pain though w/ take root, but I'll use it for the fluff always. I do, however, think it should be AV10 being that it is essentially made of stone!

As for the most difficult to play vs, I found that Four Nations vs Clan Pestilence is nearly the worst match-up they can get!

_________________
"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley


Last edited by Nightbird on Jul 30, 2016 - 18:50; edited 5 times in total
Roland



Joined: May 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2016 - 15:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
So which team is everyone enjoying playing with the most?

or against the most?

which race is hardest to use?

Which do you think has no hope?


I have a few thoughts. Will write them down when not on the phone.
(At the maternity ward atm, another snotling on its way!)
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2016 - 16:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
So which team is everyone enjoying playing with the most?

or against the most?

which race is hardest to use?

Which do you think has no hope?


Enjoyed playing: Von Carstein Vamps (Zandri close second).
I love Vamps, and starting with 4 with pro is just awesome. It takes away a lot of the enforced conservatism that can really ruin early games for vampire teams. They are, starting out, better vamps. I don't think that will last completely long-term - at high tv I'd rather have 5 skilled vamps than 4 (+ spirit hosts if using), but if you were only ever planning 4 vamps, it's an extremely solid and competent roster, where losing a vamp is not as big a dip since his replacement comes in with pro already and doesn't therefore immediately put a strain on a reroll count/roster size that may have been tailored for blanket pro in the case of CRP vamps.


Against? Hmm, not really thought of that. I don't seek matchups, so it's never foremost in my mind. I guess cathay are fun to play against because they present a variety of skills which make them interesting no matter what you're using.

Can't comment really on what is most difficult overall to use, since I've not used everything. But of what I've used, Were is the trickiest by far - if the cats would stop dieing that might be different, but mine keep taking perms and RIPs before seeing 6 spp.


No hope? I don't think any of the ones most people will pick have no hope really (ie. all the stunties are fine) - clan moulder might be crap vs a lot of races, but they are fine vs other stunties and are effectively a mass big guy stunty roster (with non-loner wild animals). Nauticans are stunties who benefit from big hand, which is massive in stunty v stunty, and have two big guys who are, while unreliable, effectively killers of opposing big guys. Lumbria are semi-stunty, but imo, very strong, I'd suspect that their overall poor showing in win% is because the skills on the stunties tempt people to play them into too much contact. Pygmies are very good short-term, but are basically a supernova stunty team - their first match will probably be their best. To be honest, these teams probably suffer more from people playing them in completely unfavourable match-ups more than they do from actual "design" - this isn't a "you should pick", but more a "of course stunties lose to brets etc" point.

Fire elementals seem the weakest to me of the normal rosters because they just can't do a single thing reliably, and even blocking successfully can end up leading to another unreliable dice roll. A positional genius might be able to get them to work, but truth be told, I think most people are just going to avoid them or give up.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2016 - 18:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Roland wrote:
another snotling on its way!
Gratz!

I've been playing Earth Elementals mostly. They're pretty good against other low-skill teams at low TV, but I think they'd struggle against a "serious" team at low TV, like Dwarfs or WE or even Humans. They play like an AV9 team and develop like an AV8 team; having no Apothecary, you have to cope with attrition rather than trying to keep a lid on it like you can with Dwarfs or Orcs. I wouldn't recommend them for a novice coach, but for an experienced hand looking for a new challenge they're a lot of fun. Note that I've been "managing" the amount of Claw I face, trying to see about 0.5 Claws per game (so far, I've faced 5 Claws total in 3 of my 10 games).

I played one game with Brets when I couldn't get a match with my Elementals. I can't tell you from one game that they're as OP as they look on paper, but they sure are easy mode. I agree that the Cyanide roster is silly, but if I'm right the fixes Garion made will lead to a superpower (the game I played would have been silly with the Cyanide roster too). I'm gonna make a couple more rookie teams so I can play fair games when I can't get an Elemental game.

As far as opponents, the hardest one for me to play against was a well-built Moulder team with only 3 ROs. They had everything: several Block Slaves, lots of Two Heads, a Big Hand guy (who ended up winning the game with Big Hand), a Claw/Jug RO, a RO with Block, all sorts of nifty stuff. The one that had the hardest time playing against me was Gnomes. They even pulled off a Stunty 1d cagebreak, but it didn't matter, I just used their AV7/Stunty to win the scrum, and when their KO rolls were bad I cleared the pitch in the second half and scored twice. This was with rookie teams, maybe a couple guys with Block or MB or something, no serious killers.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi
ahalfling



Joined: Aug 16, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2016 - 20:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
So which team is everyone enjoying playing with the most?


Well, the weres are right up there... though after some attrition a few games ago, I find myself on a two-game losing streak. Dice have been part of it, I suspect, but they're also hard to play at high TV with a bunch of unskilled cats.

I could also make strong arguments for my hobgoblin slavers, savage orcs, regular hobgoblins, or (making a rapid rise up the charts) Skryre.

Quote:
or against the most?


I've derived equal parts enjoyment and frustration from facing the Slaanesh daemon roster, which is usually a good sign.

Quote:
which race is hardest to use?


Of the teams I've played, Eshin is the only one with a losing record -- but I wouldn't consider them "hard to use" given that they're basically Skaven. I might go with gnomes, though I'm pretty convinced my issue with gnomes was that I was trying to play them as a stunty team instead of acknowledging that they didn't have dodge and treating them accordingly. Daemons of Tzeentch have also given me a bit of trouble, though I feel they're a pretty strong roster in theory... just need to skill up the pink horrors a little more.

Of the ones I've played, I think I'll go with air elementals, with the caveat that they're probably going to be easier to use once they pick up a few skills.

Quote:
Which do you think has no hope?


Again, I don't see many here. Treemen are a possible option, though at lower TVs, they can be incredibly frustrating to face. My issues with Nauticans have been documented. And while I wish Albion well, they're basically lizardmen ogres.

But all of those (and gnoblar) are stunty teams, and as such I find it hard to get too worked up over them being not-great or situational. (They're almost all better than CRP halflings or ogres... though I'll admit I haven't faced the snotling team.)

I too will have to go with fire elementals... for most elemental teams, 2 players with frenzy will be enough. If you do want a frenzy-based team, there are plenty of options better equipped to carry that out.

Other candidates include Rasetra (Saurus thrower is hilarious, but essentially these are lizardmen with 4 saurii and 2 kroxes -- and skeletons, which are not exactly an upgrade over skinks), Strigoi (lower-quality vamps that have to eat ghouls, and linemen who make thralls look good) and Lahmian (bloodlust doesn't seem worth it when all it gets you is an elf blitzer.)

_________________
Beat Claw, Play AV7

(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.)
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2016 - 21:49 Reply with quote Back to top

suprised to hear some of those races named so low down, Strigoi are for sure a tough balancing act but i think they are really good, Lahian about the same as normal vamps maybe or a little better. Even albion I think are decent.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2016 - 22:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Jevouse is 4-0-0 with Lahmians. There's a couple bad teams and a few bad first games bringing Lahmians down in the standings, but that's really only able to happen because they aren't a team that appeals to a lot of coaches, 'cuz they're Vamps who trade several +ST players for 0-2 Human Blitzers. I think they fall under the category of "just good enough that a good coach can win with them if they're his cup of tea."

Albion look good at low TV. All that juicy low AV will wear on them, though.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi


Last edited by JackassRampant on Jul 30, 2016 - 22:26; edited 1 time in total
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2016 - 22:25 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Jevouse is 4-0-0 with Lahmians. There's a couple bad teams and a few bad first games bringing Lahmians down in the standings, but that's really only able to happen because they aren't a team that appeals to a lot of coaches, 'cuz they're Vamps who trade several +ST players for 0-2 Human Blitzers.


dont forget they have av8 linemen, and more importantly Dodge on their vamps as a starter skill which is huge and Ma7
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2016 - 22:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
dont forget they have av8 linemen, and more importantly Dodge on their vamps as a starter skill which is huge and Ma7
That helps....

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Veni, Vidi, Risi
MachJacob



Joined: Jun 09, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2016 - 23:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Of course, the AV8 does nothing for Bloodlust and just makes the food more expensive.

Though having Blitzers is great, and I'd say that the Lahmian Vampires are just as good as the vanilla Vampires. The team certainly looks fun, and I think I'd prefer it over a vanilla Vampire team.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2016 - 23:25 Reply with quote Back to top

MachJacob wrote:
Of course, the AV8 does nothing for Bloodlust and just makes the food more expensive.



yeah very true, more expensive food, but better on los and in game for taking hits. Its certainly an interesting trade off.
ahalfling



Joined: Aug 16, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 31, 2016 - 00:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, Lahmians are probably not as bad as the other named teams. I was just reacting to the idea of paying the price of a negatrait to get a player who's not that much better than an elf. (Or maybe daemonettes are the better comparison, given that elves can't get hypnotic gaze.)

(I will always pay 40k for a 6/3/3/7 lineman before paying 50k for a 6/3/3/8, though. I'm reluctant to pay for armor the vast majority of the time, but downright unwilling to do so on linemen. At least they're human linos and not zombies, I suppose...)

As for Strigoi, you might be right. (And I see Jevouse also has had success with them... I think I might have found my polar opposite as a coach.) I strongly dislike zombies, though -- speaking of the irrelevance of lineman survivability -- and claw is a skill I don't value as highly as some, in addition to being a weird fit for a team that's not equipped to deal damage other than the vamps. Six ghouls is pretty good, though! (If you can keep your blitzers from eating them.)

_________________
Beat Claw, Play AV7

(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.)
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 31, 2016 - 01:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Regarding Lahmians. AV7 linos is a major weakness on teams. It's a good way of making a roster much weaker. So having AV8 across the board, firms up the team a fair bit.

On top of this, another of vamps biggest weaknesses is the blanket MA6. Which leads to MA increases on vamp teams as very worthy stat increases. So with those 2 negative factors combated, on paper it's a fair trade.

That said I've been playing a Lahmian team (minus the blitzers) for a few years now, and they're doing terrible. I can't really work out why they're quite so bad though.

I'm kind of a bit disappointed in there being so much 'this roster needs this' or 'that roster needs nerfing' chat to be honest. I didn't think that was what Secret League was all about. The more you strive for balance, the more it will hinder the creativity. However each to his own, and finds their fun in their own way.
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 31, 2016 - 12:20 Reply with quote Back to top

@Garion: not trying to be cheeky, but have you considered making Bretonnian blitzers GAP rather than GS, now that Cyanide has made that move?

Cheers
Martin
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 31, 2016 - 13:33 Reply with quote Back to top

It ok Martin, but no, that is the thing I like least about your roster tbh. I used your roster here because it was fairly widely used already before cyanide came along, but I just couldn't stomach GA knights so had to change it. The rest of the roster is not what I would have done personally for Brets, but its not awful. But A access instead of S on the knights is just out and out ridiculous, and P access is pretty dumb too, Sorry.

I can get on board with Catch on the knights, but the Yeoman/squires should have P access as they would be serving the ball to the knights to take the glory. I think the safety of wrestle is a little wrong on the yeoman as well. It makes the team too reliable at rookie level and the peasants are actually really really good possibly too good for what they are meant to be. I think on the whole I preferred the 4th edition roster though it lacked a little character which your roster does have. As things are I am fine with them being one of the best races in the game for this custom league I can live with that.

If they were to make it in the real official roster list I would be very unhappy.

For what it is worth. I think Brets should be something like this

peasants 0-16
6327 30k G:SAP

squires /yeoman 0-2
6338 Fend, Sure Hands 70k GP:SA

Blocker 0-2 (call him something fluffy if you prefer Knight Blocker, or WFB names etc..)
4429 Fend GS 90k

Blitzer 0-4 (call him something fluffy if you prefer Knight Blitzer, or WFB names etc..)
7338 Block Catch, Dauntless 110k GS

something along those lines anyway, thats just off the top of my head in 2 seconds.


Last edited by Garion on Jul 31, 2016 - 13:34; edited 1 time in total
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