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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 22:00 Reply with quote Back to top

It’s not often that SH is considered an optimal choice as an additional skill at the top end. You see it half the time on a Ghoul, that’s about it. Tackle is taken more, but it’s not every time. Depends on ruleset, race, etc. These things are highly variable weekend to weekend, but building a roster just to stop WE is universally not the best plan.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 00:43 Reply with quote Back to top

If you build a roster purely to stop WE there's a good chance you never face them, playing near the bottom tables Very Happy

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 01:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Sure that's true. But how many rosters would you need to take anti wood elf skills.

Dwarf, chaos dwarf have tackle.

Slann, skaven and all the elf teams have ag4 and high ma so the need to take sure hands is not as important.

Humans, khemri and orc have sure hands.

Then you have the stunty teams that are very different in play style.

Liz and necro have very fast players, and lacking in other core kills so again SH isn't a priority

And the chaos and nurgle team that are substandard resurection tourney teams.


I guess this leaves undead, Norse and Amazon, who are average to low ma, have good skill coverage in other areas so SH and tackle are obvious picks.

Like everything in bb a one size fits all rule is never gonna work.

Good positioning and solid bb play is invariably gonna win the day

Obviously this is over simplified ^ . But I'm sure you get the point:)

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 08:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Topper wrote:
The Venga cage is good at this. (A venga cage is a cage with an extra player inside meaning you get both a guard and a extra player to assist you).


Why "Venga"?

Thanks in advance.

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 09:20 Reply with quote Back to top

It’s a term that we (Team Waterbowl) coined at the 2011 World Cup when describing an elongated cage to a teammate. I don’t know why really, the bus has a driver and we were just drunk / silly and were enjoying singing the Vengabus song. Odd that it stuck with others.
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 18:02 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
Topper wrote:
The Venga cage is good at this. (A venga cage is a cage with an extra player inside meaning you get both a guard and a extra player to assist you).


Why "Venga"?

Thanks in advance.


I got it from a joemanji video. He got it from an old song
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 18:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I think sure Hands is great for Lizardmen, even if there are other tempting block skills for your allocation. If you can only have one double then I see Block krox is the one ahead. Surely SH is good for Necros too. Not using rerolls for pickups is big.

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ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 19:45 Reply with quote Back to top

I just don't know if sure hands is as worth it with Amazons when Roxanna picks up on a 2+, even in the rain.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 22:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
There is such a thing as driving too well.


True, but equally there is such a thing as offering too good a bait. Wink Woodies are just really, really good, there's no way around it.

The important things to do on your drive have all been covered, I would add: Kick if you can, give them the ball, let them worry about Roxy instead of you worrying about the Stripper.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 22:57 Reply with quote Back to top

ph0enyx13 wrote:
I just don't know if sure hands is as worth it with Amazons when Roxanna picks up on a 2+, even in the rain.


Good point.

From the top of my hat, one might wish to open up a widezone with the surf threat. Roxanna also becomes a scoring threat. This speeds up the Vengabus [1], which would also improve two-turning.

The question should rather be: what skill does Sure Hands replace?

[1]: I've listened to the song and now know why the name stuck.

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ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 23:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Well for me I am taking 3 guard, 1 leader, 2 block and a wrestle. I know there is another variant of my roster where you have 4 Blitzer no thrower and 11 girls +Roxy where you can fit 6 skills
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 23, 2019 - 00:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Roxanna has loner

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sbr32



Joined: May 23, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 23, 2019 - 23:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Coming at it from the other side, as a Wood Elf player, most of the things I would mention have been said. I barely consider myself a decent Woodie player but I have had some success with them at my last 2 40+ person NAF tourneys.

This is all in "normal" situations, in a lot of games there gets to be a point where you just have to take a shot and then all bets are off. The big thing is being aware of where the the Strip Ball Dancer is coming from and controlling that. If I have to make a 3+ Dodge before I can Leap my chances of jumping in drop drastically. Knowing where he is coming from means not only knowing the approach path and where they will land but where the ball will drop if it does come out. If it looks like I will need a 5+ Dodge and 5+ Pick Up just to grab the ball after I'm probably not going to bother jumping in in the first place. Also Leaping in next to a Tackle/Mighty Blow/Dirty Player changes the equation quite a bit.

I'm taking Woodies to the World Cup and the build I am using in the World Cup Warm Up event here doesn't have any Strip Ball, just Side Step on both Dancers. The guy who won the Spike! Championship up in Vancouver a couple of weeks ago used the same build there and he is taking it to WC. I'm still not too sure about it, I feel like I don't know how to defend without that Leap/Strip crutch but in a very small sample size it greatly increases the life expectancy of the War Dancers. 16 turns of a Side Step Dancer is better than 10 turns with Strip Ball.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 23, 2019 - 23:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Hmmm interesting build, sidestep is indeed a good skill but I would still definitely take strip ball on one wardancer. For me I would happily have the wardancer who only lives 10 turns, but successfully strips the ball - who cares if he ends up in the bin late on, by then your catcher is off near the end zone for the winner...

I don't know the full ruleset for the World Cup but if you like sidestepping elf blitzers, why not play elf union instead? With one skill-up each, you get two blodge sidestep players who are great passive defenders, and what is more they have Av 8 to boot - much better than playing the same tactic with wardancers?
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 24, 2019 - 17:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, sidestep doesn't help much against being pow'd. But Av8 on top does.

Sidestep could be very frustrating for opponents. But I think people fearing stripball/wrestle/tackle leaps is why people don't like facing Woodies.
Of course as your opponent will often have sure hands it makes sense to have a wrestle/tackler as well if you are going the leap route.
On the other hand a lot of carriers in TT tournaments will not have block. So maybe a block sidestep leaper will work well.

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