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Carnis



Joined: Feb 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2019 - 13:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I have to say as a former 2011-12 clawpomber (team in question lost dirty players to crown of sands in 2012), I am dismally disappointed by the lack of booting in fumbbl.

Just now I witnessed a legend ranked coach foul 2 thick skulled regenerating skeletons, a thoroughly suboptimal approach, yet he got 2 casualties only one of which was regenerated.

But.. In general there are no dirty player teams where before there might be 5 dedicated skeleton foulers in a tomb kings list.

Grigori is raising awareness (and collecting mvps for sneaky git), 9 fouls 1 sentoff. And I did have a decent foul fest recently with 9 fouls total.

But really..? Coaches, with dedicated mvp every team can be guaranteed to pickup dirty player by game3*.

And with the new argument the call mechanic saving one 6th of your foulers - we can start fouling on turn1 instead of 2nd half - with a significantly above 1:1 yield!! Sent off to casualty ratio for first half fouls (sent off, but argue success -even ignoring knockouts here!!) is 55/216 foulers sent off - to 60/216** targets dead & injured.

So, coaches - raise awareness, start sharpening your boots again & lets see some pixelfear in B again!***

*Assuming your team has access to general skills
**assuming dirty player + sneaky git OR dirty player against AV0
***(And do it to win - so don't foul regenerating thick skulls..).
Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2019 - 18:56 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm with you! Let's do this.

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Lorebass



Joined: Jun 25, 2010

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2019 - 19:15
FUMBBL Staff
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I make a point of only suggesting sneaky git in the skills help discords...
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2019 - 20:33 Reply with quote Back to top

The division is dominated by TV efficiency and getting mass dp is simply not the best value for money in that respect. If you want to play sub-optimal team builds in a way you really enjoy, by all means do so.

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boruppeter



Joined: Sep 11, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2019 - 21:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, you see, assuming you foul against AV0 you indeed have a chance of 25,46% to be sent off (including a 16,67% chance that you cannot argue the call further), and a 27,78% chance (with Dirty Player) to cause an injury (or death).

The problem is, in the actual game, you don't break armour automatically, so without Sneaky Git, chances are much higher that the ref will send you off than causing a casualty. And even with Sneaky Git, if you only break armour with using your Dirty Player bonus, chances are higher that the ref sends you off than causing a casualty.

To heighten your chance to break armour (preferably without having to use Dirty Player) you could dedicate players to assist the foul, but usually that's a bad idea, because - especially in a competitive division - positioning is paramount, and with assisting a foul your positioning will be very bad...

Add that to the fact that you would need to assign a general skill and an agility skill to the fouling player, for a very situational (at best) gain, you really could use the TV needed for these two skills (especially if you want to use multiple foulers) really, really better... Block and dodge, for example, comes to mind...
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2019 - 22:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Bring back an option for +2 DP.

And RSC while you're at it.

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Composer99



Joined: May 18, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2019 - 22:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Carnis wrote:

**assuming dirty player + sneaky git OR dirty player against AV0


(Emphasis mine)

This is a typo, right?
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 18, 2019 - 00:51 Reply with quote Back to top

There is always Sneaky Git.

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There is always Sneaky Git.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 18, 2019 - 09:08 Reply with quote Back to top

There are merits to fouling, especially in a competitive division, anyone who dismisses fouling as sub-optimal is also dismissing an entire area of risk assessment vs even/better opponent in potentially unfavourable situations. This may simply be because you are uncomfortable with it, but it is a facet of higher level play that absolutely requires consideration.

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Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 18, 2019 - 10:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Sorry AD, but you seem to be missing the point of the first post. It was mostly about a longing for the old days when pretty much every zombie/skellie/orc lineman etc... was a dirty player.

One or two DP are still very useful to have, but dp spam as a team building principle in the Box is simply not viable these days.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 18, 2019 - 10:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I read the post and I think you have read far too deeply into one sentence. Indeed, the team linked as an example has a single dirty player.

The 5 dirty is obviously an extreme example. I think that's quite clear from the post. Especially given that Carnis has went on to give examples of DP calcs, and DP+SG calcs while not telling everyone to get DP+SG. And has specifically pointed out not to make low equity fouls.

The thread is not about lack of mass DP, it's about underuse of fouling as a strategy. Considering we're at a point now where people still run 11-13man rosters, but with lowered attrition from lack of (c)pomb, the presence of D3MVP (thus more easily obtained, longer lived multiskill players), and the addition of AtC, it is arguable that fouling has more relevance than ever.

All in all, I think you missed the point.

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Carnis



Joined: Feb 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 18, 2019 - 20:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
The division is dominated by TV efficiency.

Fouling is a viable & TV efficient strategy.
Quote:
Add that to the fact that you would need to assign a general skill and an agility skill to the fouling player, for a very situational (at best) gain, you really could use the TV needed for these two skills (especially if you want to use multiple foulers) really, really better... Block and dodge, for example, comes to mind...

I think this is apples to oranges, put in another way:

Your block & dodge is your general practictitioner - Treats mild infections, wounds, subclinical flu. Good general practice, not optimal.

Your Block & mighty blow is your general surgeon - Treats appendicitis, simple fractures. Good general healthcare, but small niche of people are left with morbid injuries - untreated.

Your Dirty Player & Sneaky git is your neurosurgeon - rarely needed, but helpful when facing with a critical spinal injury.

Quote:
AV0 (Emphasis mine)

This is a typo, right?

No, you can set your opponents AV by deciding how committed you are - to the foul, for instance a standard cage + DP gives 3 assists, a cage + 2 players gives 5 assists that is AV2 versus an AV7 player, effectively that is a 35/36 of breaking armor before dirty player.

Quote:
@Cloggy

I am not missing the old days with 5 dirty player, rather I'm observing there is an aversion to TV efficient fouling and degeneration towards grudge / desperation fouling.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 18, 2019 - 21:01 Reply with quote Back to top

grudge / desperation fouling is great from a fluff perspective, and also from a game flow perspective, as it makes games marginally faster

when it works, it give s you a consolation prize ("I lost but I maimed the freak!")

when it fails, it makes it even easier for the team that's ahead to dominate

it is also probably one (maybe not the main) cause of certain otherwise top tier teams' absence from your everyday box. When you know that your cookie cutter wardancer can always snake and be gang-fouled in a random match, your activations will be few and far between, saving your precious for Majors and stuff like that.
boruppeter



Joined: Sep 11, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 18, 2019 - 23:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Carnis wrote:
Fouling is a viable & TV efficient strategy.

Viable in the sense that there are rules for it, yes. TV efficient, definitely no, and you yourself gave the reasons why not:
Quote:
Your Dirty Player & Sneaky git is your neurosurgeon - rarely needed, but helpful when facing with a critical spinal injury.

There you have it - yes, on the rare occasion that you need a Dirty Player & Sneaky Git it's indeed helpful, but the +50 TV for Dirty Player & Sneaky Git not only rarely inflate your TV, but always... It's not TV efficient to bloat it with things you rarely need instead of things you always (or at least most of the time) need...

Quote:
(...) for instance (...) a cage + 2 players gives 5 assists that is AV2 versus an AV7 player, effectively that is a 35/36 of breaking armor before dirty player.

And there you have it why gang fouling usually is a bad idea and will lose you games. You need to dedicate 6 players (5 assists and the fouler) to one spot so that you have a 97,22% chance to get a 27,78% chance to cause a casualty, and additionally a 25,46% that your player gets banned (argue the call already included in the calculation). I repeat: good positioning is paramount for winning games, especially in a competitive environment, and using more than half your team just to get a ~ 2% better chance that the opposing player is removed than that your own player is removed is not sound strategy (on very rare circumstances it's definitely worth it, but - as these circumstances are rare and the TV always goes up, not TV efficient).
Carnis



Joined: Feb 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 18, 2019 - 23:53 Reply with quote Back to top

With the client the optimal AV for sneaky git is 5, because dirty player use is mandatory - you don't want to go to 4 or 6.

Here AV4 - 2+2 +dirty player / sneaky git equals sentoff, probable stun.

So we go with AV5 - DP/SG to ignore 1+1 and 2+2 on armor.

Our odds are:
10,6% target stunned + fouler sent off - can try argue. -1 on pitch
12,5% KO or casualty + fouler sent off - can try argue. +-0 on pitch
16,7% nothing happens
60,1% sneaky stays on the pitch, AV is broken.


- 77% of outcomes are good or neutral (before AtC)

Their odds:
17% prone
36% stunned
24% knocked
22% casualty

- 46% of outcomes are KO+.

*

Its not uber powerful, but with average dice against modified AV5 or AV7 you can expect 2-4 fouls per game per sneaky/dirty yielding 1-2 stuns + 1-2 ko/cas on top of your block or surf casualties.

Then in 1/6 of your games argue works and you get an extra set of 2-4 fouls for the 2nd drive, which is potentially explosive, but ofc is not reliable.
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