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Poll
Add this tournament to the group?
I like the actual format as it's
11%
 11%  [ 2 ]
New tournament is ok, but no cycle length changes.
27%
 27%  [ 5 ]
New tournament is ok, and I like the 7 match length cycles.
22%
 22%  [ 4 ]
I'm not in E.L.F. but I'll join if format changes.
11%
 11%  [ 2 ]
I don't care, I'll join E.M.U. and I'll kill you all.
27%
 27%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 18


nin



Joined: May 27, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2005 - 21:31 Reply with quote Back to top

First, hello I'm a nobby, second, I have AFK_Eagle's consent to make this thread, he's allknowing, and I have told him everithing.

When I joined E.L.F. I did it because I liked the group, knowing that I couldn't win the tournament. I'm not so good a coach, and Idon't play too much.
But I have realiced that many coaches aren't posting their results, and only three seem to play enougth games to go for the tournament.

Playing thirty games a season (two months) with a sigle elf team seems beyond many coaches reach, and more competition would make the group more active.
There is my suggestion, in addition to the actual tournament for the best E.L.F. team, make another one for the best cycle of the season.

...and there are the trycky details:

-13 matches is also a bit too long and unranked teams can play lots of optional races, split it in two 7 matches cycles to play all the races and put a two optionals a cycle cap (one race doubles up).

-then, to avoid shoft cycles, fix the cycle composition, example:
A,C,CD,D,H,K,L first cycle
Ne,No,Nu,Or,S,U,A second (Amazons doubling)
C,CD,D,H,K,L,Ne thirth (Amazons out, Necros in)
and change it each season to be sure that people plays everything.

-another option is to fix only some teams in the first cycle, example:
Orcs, Dwarfs, and Khemry are neccesary to complet first cycle
(you can make a, "shoft" cycle, but first you play all the bashers)

The poll is there as a hint, so please post your oppinions.

For peple that want to know more about E.L.F. , click there.
Smess



Joined: Feb 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 20, 2005 - 22:04 Reply with quote Back to top

I think it's a great idea.
'Tournaments' like this are indeed biased because the more games you play, the more chances to win.

I'd definetly keep the best cycle to 13 races though. During 2 months this should be enough time. Also, optional teams should not count for the best cycle.

Anyone willing to go to the trouble of calculating best cycle of the previous 3 seasons ?
I bet I have them all Very Happy
nin



Joined: May 27, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2005 - 10:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I'll try to caculate that Mr. Green
...also the idea of 7 match cycles is there because some coaches may think that 13 matches cycles are too long, so I make my best to give an alternative, my hope is that many coaches will post their results at the end of the season, but...
nin



Joined: May 27, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2005 - 21:06 Reply with quote Back to top

As an example, season three best cycle seems to be an amazing 446 points from Elfeville Oaks, Herbie's team (66 points were due to two optional race matches). This is an impresive mark, nearly 30 points each match!
AFK_Eagle



Joined: Mar 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2005 - 17:46 Reply with quote Back to top

While this looks to be a nice addition to the group, and definitely in line with similar tournaments run by other groups, I can see this being an additional burden on the staff who dedicatedly record all the scores the group members post. If the group decides they like this idea, we can certainly try implementing it, but I do ask that if people vote "yes" they at least try to make use of the new service the staff is going to provide. Uber, Rijssiej, I'm going to try to get back a little more involved with the group once more, helping to calculate scores and lessen the burden you gents have been doing an outstanding job of supporting during my absence, so don't feel that I'm simply volunteering you for extra work should this concept be approved by the group at large.

_________________
Listen to Eagle! Eagle is good, Eagle is wise!
Founder of the E.L.F.--These elves will play anybody!
keggiemckill



Joined: Oct 07, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2005 - 00:38 Reply with quote Back to top

I never post my results, but I will start doing so. I do like to 2 seperate groups of 7 games. I have a hard time finding teams who are not Chaos. I have a hard time getting the cycle when my team is so tough. Imagine that an Elf team complaining about a lack of games. Keep up the good work im eager to hear more suggestions.

_________________
The Drunker I get, the more I spill
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"Keggie is the guy with the bleach blond hair that gives answers nobody else would think of."
Jeffro
Dunkpork



Joined: Jan 12, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2005 - 04:23 Reply with quote Back to top

I think it's a great idea. It would only cause a slight amount of work if only posted results were considered. If you don't post, you don't get considered. I've played a ton of games, trying to crack the top 3 of E.L.F. but I have mostly losses. Someone who had lots of wins in one cycle would definitely merit an award in my estimation.

I'm not so sure about the shortened cycle. I'd just consider based on the regular cycle. Maybe just consider the "regular" teams played by Unranked E.L.F.rs?
Uber



Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2005 - 06:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Guys, no one asked me permission !! I'm part of the staff you know...

<--- AND LOOK AT THESE EARS, I'M THE MASTER ELF !!!

Wink

Jokes aside, this is indeed a great idea. Personally my E.L.F. team is quite advanced and it's not easy finding games for them at high TR. Some of the currently "official cycle" races are definitely under-represented on Fumbbl. For instance, it's incredibly tough to find suitable lizardmen and necromantic teams at 250+. My suggestion would be to break teams into different tiers. Consider this:

First Tier: Chaos, Chaos Dwarf, Dwarf, Khemri, Orc
Second Tier: Amazon, Norse, Human, Skavens, Undead
Third Tier: Vampire, Necromantic, Ogre, Lizardmen, Nurgle's Rotters
Fourth Tier: Elves, Stunties

In order to complete a cycle, you would have to play against 4 out of the 5 teams of the first and second tier and 2 teams in the third and fourth tier. Notice that I have added elves to the mix. That's 12 games total for the cycle, so a reasonable 1.5 per week to complete the cycle in 2 months. The fact is that playing vs. Elves is still a lot of fun, and honestly I'm not doing that good against them since I go more for defensive skills and usually dont have as much tackles and to deal with them. I think it adds to the challenge, since you have to make your team more balanced in order to win these games. You can also have a recovery match vs. other elves and have it count for something once in a while. I think the concept of E.L.F. is not against playing vs. elves, but to play vs. everyone. It's the most enjoyable part for me, to get to face diverse opponents.

I'm just pitching my ideas out there, but one thing I'm pretty clear on is that *FOR SURE* you would need to play 4 out of 5 of the 1st tier, since these are the "archenemies" of the elves and a self-respecting E.L.F. team *NEEDS* to kick the dwarves, chaos, orcs and khemri's asses! That's what we're all about.

_________________
Recovering FUMBBL addict.
Rijssiej



Joined: Jan 04, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2005 - 11:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think making the cycles smaller is a good idea as you have less choice in teams to play for your current cycle it'll be even harder to find the right opponent. (the last 2 races usually take me as long as the other 11)
I can understand the problems though and have an other suggestion:
For each of the races only the best result vs that race counts. In this case playing more games sure can help giving a better result but the players that only play 12 games in a season can still win the title.
The_Mighty_Ren



Joined: Oct 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2005 - 15:43 Reply with quote Back to top

I haven't been playing in the ELF due to my foolish new time-consuming job, but I have been running an ELF-inspired the tournament, The League of Heroic Failure. This league does have the same problem, in that a few teams play far more games than everyone else, but I'm setting up a system of other winnable titles and records (which is more work, but a spreadsheet can handle it), which I hope might help keep the other coaches interested.

Rijssej's suggestion is a good one (IMO), but has it's own potential pitfalls (coaches with more time repeatedly playing vs one race till they get a big win).

Quote:
I don't think making the cycles smaller is a good idea as you have less choice in teams to play for your current cycle it'll be even harder to find the right opponent. (the last 2 races usually take me as long as the other 11)


You could possibly get round this by doing what I did with the LoHF, which was a cross between Uber and Nin's suggestions. I split the (in my case) 27 team cycle into one group of 3 teams (Dwarf, CD, Khemri), and four of 4 (tough teams, avg teams, elves and odd teams), and then asked people to play 1 from the 3, and 2 from each 4, per (9 game) mini-cycle. There is then a 30 point bonus for the mini-cycles, and a large one for playing vs all 27 teams. You are still meant to play versus all of the teams if possible, and you are forced to play a decent range of opponents, but there it makes it (hopefully) easier to find games.

That probably wandered slightly off-topic, so, sorry. Maybe it was useful anyway.

_________________
Every time you foul me, a kitten dies.
Join the League of Heroic Failure - lose with dignity.


Last edited by The_Mighty_Ren on Aug 23, 2005 - 15:54; edited 1 time in total
AFK_Eagle



Joined: Mar 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2005 - 15:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Actually, Ren, that did indeed stay on topic and give some useful insight. Everybody's comments so far have been spot on. I have to admit, when nin first approached me with the idea, I didn't like it, but was willing to see what the group thought. But as each person has added input towards fleshing out the idea, I'm changing my mind more and more. What do group members think...should we add some kind of "best cycle" as a supplement to the current scoring system, or as a replacement?

_________________
Listen to Eagle! Eagle is good, Eagle is wise!
Founder of the E.L.F.--These elves will play anybody!
nin



Joined: May 27, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 24, 2005 - 00:36 Reply with quote Back to top

I have realiced that I've made the suggestion but I haven't given my opinion, and with all the imput in this thread... by the way, thanks.

AFK_Eagle wrote:
What do group members think...should we add some kind of "best cycle" as a supplement to the current scoring system, or as a replacement?

I allways thougth of it as a supplement, as I see it, playing many teams of all races is more in the group line than just playing all the races every two months... more like elves playing everibody. This said, I like Rijssiej idea but it means changing the entire tournament.

Smees wrote:
I'd definetly keep the best cycle to 13 races though. During 2 months this should be enough time. Also, optional teams should not count for the best cycle.

I like this option, this is probably the best... if people can play 13 matches.

Uber wrote:
Guys, no one asked me permission !! I'm part of the staff you know...

<--- AND LOOK AT THESE EARS, I'M THE MASTER ELF !!!


Sorry Master, I thougth I had send you a PM, I'm quite messy.

Very interesting the tiers solution that you and Mighty Ren propose, more elaborated than the partial fixing of race composition of cycles I suggest and it helps to solve the difficulty of finding matches against some races.
This statistics can be helpfull.
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