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anisdrin



Joined: Apr 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 09, 2010 - 19:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm also a great lizard fan. Being the race that I played most.

The guide is very good.

Lately my Blackbox lizard team got bashed a lot losing 4 Saurus in 2 matches and I've been forced to play many undermanned games and with not more than 3 saurus.

I've found that when low in numbers Break Tackle is much more important than Block, because you can try to play the elf-way and deploy a non-contact defense and a highly mobile offense.

So now I'm experimenting with giving Break tackle 1st to at least 3 saurus.

This is probably less important in ranked where you can arrange easy recovery matches, but in BBox where you can have a long streak of matches to recover I think is a tactic to be considered.

regards.
Curro



Joined: Jun 07, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 10:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Such a good guide, Windex. Thanks for the great work.

Curro
Timlagor



Joined: Feb 13, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 13:34 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm dubious about the value of DP in the Box (where real poikilotherms play!) too...

It's undeniably great but the TS cost is high as is the opportunity cost in terms of other skills you could take and you already have a good deal of bashing power.

I think Block and Guard may well be better options for a lot of your doubles (in the box).


I like to set up sidesteppers near the sidelines and sometimes (diagonally) in front of the saurus: even a prone skink can block a square forcing the opponent's players to pass the Saurus -does depend on them staying on the pitch of course.

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Timlagor



Joined: Feb 13, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 13:34 Reply with quote Back to top

I particularly liked the OTT advice as I hadn't thought of bending the pushes back for the extra square.

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maysrill



Joined: Dec 29, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 14:26 Reply with quote Back to top

WC basically summed up how I'd like to play lizards if I was better with them Smile

A couple notes on where I'd differ with him though:

1. I prefer skink ball-handlers in the backfield. Against very slow teams you can afford the try with a saurus, but often a failed pickup puts you in a bad way close to your own end zone. For skilling up sauruses I try to do it via hand-off on the opponent's end of the field, preferably while most of their team is flat on their backs. If this scenario doesn't work out, then I score with the skink. It probably gets me less-developed sauruses, but I think I win more games this way.

2. I generally line up 3 sauruses on the LOS, with the Krox just behind a little in one of two arrangements. Either a couple squares back so that it is free to move into TZs and tie up opponents, or immediately behind the middle player on the LOS. This second setup is one I've been experimenting with for Guard big-guys against teams who will beat up your LOS regardless. It's something of an anti-foul defense, basically discouraging your opponent from following up his LOS blocks. Should he get a push on a later block, he'll strand the earlier blockers in the big guy's TZ. By limiting follow-ups you make large gang-fouls less frequent. This strat seems to be best used for orcs and lizards, since they have viable av9 guys to put on the line (chaos theoretically could, but you'd rather have the beasts for LOS fodder).

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Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 23:01 Reply with quote Back to top

A few things that are missing (these relate mostly to tournaments) :

- Be very wary of wizards. Never set up tight cages against them. A fireball in a bunch of AG1 players is an ugly thing!

- An advantage of having a skink carry the ball rather than a saurus is that you have one less player to protect (that is, only the 4 skinks rather than the 4 skinks plus the ball carrying saurus). In a game where the team that manages to outnumber the opponent has the advantage, this can be huge. The skink also has a better chance of surviving a fireball.

- An AG2 saurus with sure hands is great to have. Outside of tournaments, you probably don't want to ever score with him so that he doesn't get all the SPPs. In a tournament however, a player who can pick up the ball 75% of the time without needing a team reroll, has ST4 and sure hands to defend himself from blitzes, and has a 1 in 3 chance of surviving a fireball, is a great asset to have. If you intend to play in tournaments at all, you shouldn't ever turn down +AG on sauri.
WindexChugger



Joined: Oct 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 23:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Zombie69 wrote:
- Be very wary of wizards. Never set up tight cages against them. A fireball in a bunch of AG1 players is an ugly thing!


Not only that, but AG3 AV7 Stunty is pretty flamable I've found.

Zombie69 wrote:
- An advantage of having a skink carry the ball rather than a saurus is that you have one less player to protect (that is, only the 4 skinks rather than the 4 skinks plus the ball carrying saurus). In a game where the team that manages to outnumber the opponent has the advantage, this can be huge.


Another advantage of a Skink ball carrier is that you have an extra Saurus to bash stuff.

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Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 11, 2010 - 23:39 Reply with quote Back to top

maysrill wrote:
2. I generally line up 3 sauruses on the LOS, with the Krox just behind a little in one of two arrangements. Either a couple squares back so that it is free to move into TZs and tie up opponents, or immediately behind the middle player on the LOS. This second setup is one I've been experimenting with for Guard big-guys against teams who will beat up your LOS regardless. It's something of an anti-foul defense, basically discouraging your opponent from following up his LOS blocks. Should he get a push on a later block, he'll strand the earlier blockers in the big guy's TZ. By limiting follow-ups you make large gang-fouls less frequent. This strat seems to be best used for orcs and lizards, since they have viable av9 guys to put on the line (chaos theoretically could, but you'd rather have the beasts for LOS fodder).


I'm the one who introduced this idea in the forums about a year ago, so you probably took it from me. It works best for skaven though, because
1- people usually prefer to leave wild animals by themselves rather than give them free blocks
2- you don't want to put a 130k, av8 player on the LoS anyway
3- protecting your av7 LoS players is more important than protecting AV9 ones
clarkin



Joined: Oct 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2010 - 11:38 Reply with quote Back to top

A great guide, nice work. The main thing I think is a bit dubious is your over-emphasising of DP.

I have DPs on essentially every team I run and fully understand how effective it is. However, for lizardmen I don't think it's very worthwhile.

- kick is a must-have skill for lizards. You have ma8 stunty players to steal the ball from anywhere so kicking deep is a good move. Even if you want to get a load of DPs I'd recommend getting one kicker first.

- trading DP fouls back and forth is not a good strategy when you are playing lizardmen. You simply can't afford the attrition as they will be fouling sauruses every time. As soon as you lose 1-2 sauruses off the pitch it gets very painful. Almost any other race can sub in str3 linemen but lizards can't. You are better off taking one DP foul per half from the other team and never fouling back than going for a foul-war.

- and of course, you are giving up double rolls for DP in the first place. I'd prefer one kicker, then block/sure hands etc. Block on skinks dramatically improves their survivability and annoyance-factor.

edit- that said, I would take a single DP on a skink after getting a kicker


Last edited by clarkin on Jan 14, 2010 - 11:43; edited 1 time in total
clarkin



Joined: Oct 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2010 - 11:41 Reply with quote Back to top

WindexChugger wrote:

Check this out.
Good: Full FF, all your positionals
Bad: No apoth, one reroll


I prefer the more 'standard' 6 saurus, 5 skink, 2 RR, 9 FF, 10k start. Apo first purchase then save towards kroxi, then RRs 3 + 4.
simme



Joined: Jun 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2010 - 23:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Great Guide Wc.
I just have a few comments about dp's and what clarkin wrote.
I think Clarkin is wrong.
Without dp the opposition won't be limited to 1 foul per half.
Teams with 2 or more dp's will hit the sauri when they are down and they can bring in assists regardless of the eye.
If you got a dp, atleast you can foul back if not foul first and gain an advantage.
With the high movement and strength of lizardmen it will be alot harder for the opposition to foul back if he is already outnumbered and he/she will think twice before fouling with the eye.

just my 2 cents Simme
James_Probert



Joined: Nov 25, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2010 - 00:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Great Guide Windex

Pac can this be added to your list of useful tactics topics please Smile

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Optihut



Joined: Dec 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2010 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Zombie69 wrote:
I'm the one who introduced this idea in the forums about a year ago, so you probably took it from me.


I remember you posting it, but that doesn't necessarily mean he "probably" took it from you. People come up with similar / the same stuff all the time.
Araznaroth



Joined: Oct 08, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2010 - 22:20 Reply with quote Back to top

So whats next, a guide on how to rebuild lizards? Smile Pity they got so damaged in the WO. Still diehard fan though! Go Lizards!!!
easilyamused



Joined: Jun 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2010 - 22:49 Reply with quote Back to top

I vote for a sticky on this topic.

Now anyone prepared to write one for any other races?

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