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Olesh



Joined: Jun 24, 2010

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 18:20 Reply with quote Back to top

This is WhatBall's most recent post on the bogeys:

Bogeymen
0-2 Bogeymen 5/4/1/8 Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Grab, Regeneration - SM/GAP 120k
0-2 Bogles 6/3/3/7 Leap, VLL, Disturbing Presence, Regeneration, Decay - GA/SPM 100k
0-2 Pranksters 5/1/3/5 Dodge, Side Step, Stunty, Titchy, Stab, Regeneration - A/GSPM 50k
0-12 Boggarts 6/2/3/6 Wrestle, Foul Appearance, Stunty, Regeneration - A/GSPM 60k

Full line up of 11 using all positionals costs 840k, leaving money for two rerolls at 60k apiece.

I'm posting this here because it's a reference, not because I think it's strictly necessary to stick to this formula.

Whatball stated in the other thread he wants the gimmick to be a "nuisance" team. I'm also posting the "goblin" statline here because that's what I use as a reference for pricing for stunty. In general, note that Right Stuff doesn't generally count as a skill for pricing purposes and is team-dependent more than anything else.

Goblin - 6/2/3/7 A/GSP Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff 40k
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 18:26 Reply with quote Back to top

As a note:

My suggested version:

Bogeymen
0-2 Bogeymen 5/4/1/8 Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Grab, Regeneration - SM/GAP 110k
0-2 Bogles 6/3/3/7 Leap, VLL, Disturbing Presence, Regeneration - AM/GSP 90k
0-2 Pranksters 5/1/3/5 Dodge, Side Step, Stunty, Titchy, Stab - A/GSPM 50k
0-12 Boggarts 6/2/3/6 Wrestle, Foul Appearance, Stunty - M/GASP 50k
WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 18:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Bogeymen
0-2 Bogeymen 5/4/1/8 Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Grab, Regeneration - SM/GAP 120k
0-2 Bogles 6/3/3/7 Leap, VLL, Disturbing Presence, Regeneration - GA/SPM 100k
0-2 Pranksters 5/1/3/5 Dodge, Side Step, Stunty, Titchy, Stab, Regeneration - A/GSPM 50k
0-16 Boggarts 6/2/2/6 Wrestle, Foul Appearance, Stunty - A/GSPM 60k

I adjusted the Boggarts to 0-16 to comply with standard lineman rules. I removed their Regen to match the original fluff too. Also, changed them to AG2, leaving ST at 2. This makes them a lot less mobile and less able to handle the ball. You now have to rely on the Bogles to do it, and they are AV7. I took away the Bogles Decay, it seemed excessive if they are the only ball handlers now.

I want to work Diving Tackle or Prehensile Tail in somewhere as well to make it harder for things to get away from them. Maybe on the Bogeymen?

Thoughts?

Edit: Saw your suggestions after posting Nelphine, will think on them. Smile

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WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 18:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Bogeymen
0-2 Bogeymen 5/4/1/8 Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Grab, Regeneration, Diving Tackle - SM/GAP 120k
0-2 Bogles 6/3/3/7 Leap, VLL, Disturbing Presence, Regeneration - GAM/SP 100k
0-2 Pranksters 5/1/3/5 Dodge, Side Step, Stunty, Titchy, Stab, Regeneration - A/GSPM 50k
0-16 Boggarts 6/2/2/6 Wrestle, Foul Appearance, Stunty - AM/GSP 60k

Gave the Bogle and Boggarts M access, added DT to the Bogeymen. Kept the prices as is, since Nelphine had suggested lowering them, but I am adding either a skill or M access. Too much added? Raise the cost of the Bogeyman or Bogle? Should I add Bone-head to the Bogeymen as they are the de facto big guy of the team?

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Olesh



Joined: Jun 24, 2010

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 19:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Gonna throw the Nurgling example here again regarding the Boggarts:

Nurgling 5/2/2/7 Dodge/Regen/Stunty - AM/GSP 50k
Boggart 6/2/2/6 Wrestle/Foul Appearance/Stunty - AM/GSP

Price-wise, it's looking a lot better. You've got an equivalent stat line (-AV/-MA are basically equal cost-wise), and the Boggarts are 10k more for starting with a doubles skill.

Pranksters seem very undercosted for everything they get. Going off the Goblin template, they're -30k between 3 instances of -AV/-MA, -20k for dropping from ST2 to ST1, and then get Side Step, Titchy, Stab, and Regeneration. Whether or not Titchy is worth 20k on a positional is debateable, but the rest are worth 20k apiece easily (and Stab arguably is worth more in Stuny). If you priced every additional skill/trait at 20k like normal, they should be 80k, or 70k if you consider titchy a 10k trait (I don't in stunty).

Boggles, same deal: Based on the goblin template, they're +ST, and depending on whether or not you consider stunty worth a price adjustment either two skills three skills up. This would put them at 80k or 100k before you even consider the +ST and the G access (which you also have to pay for in stunty leeg). Let's compare them to a mechavermin:

0-2 Bogles 6/3/3/7 Leap, VLL, Disturbing Presence, Regeneration - GAM/SP 100k
0-2 Mechavermin 4/3/3/10 Mighty Blow, Stand Firm - GSM/AP 90k

Boggles are a net -10k on -AV/+MA but up two skills/traits (normally 40k), which would put them up at 130k before applying the Big Guy price reduction. Mechavermin themselves could probably use a price hike up to 100k but for now let's assume that 90k is where they belong. With this skill setup, even if the two additional skills/traits were discounted, you'd still want to price the Bogles up to 110k minimum (otherwise some skills are literally free).

Really, I think you're trying to give these guys too many skills to start. They're already really expensive as-is, with only 1 reroll if you want to buy all positionals and a spare 12th player. Actually pricing them appropriately for all the skills you want to give them will cut either your ability to start with a spare or with a reroll.
SvenS



Joined: Jul 07, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 19:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Isnt there enough to do with gettin S sorted w-o adding new teams atm?

Im all for new teams (go clan Moulder!) but I dont think the timing is great.

Not that that has to prevent discussion but I wouldnt expect them to make it in yet.

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SL
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 19:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Whatball:
Having been through a lot of these kinds of discussions all I can suggest is

1. 60K linemen doesn't work so well (although the journeyman dynamic may change that)
and
2. Stunty should be about the Stunty players.. Players with St 3+ should have negatraits which keep them from being the teams primary ball carriers (see the Flamers, Spider riders, and Mechavermin for examples).
3. Decide what your players are supposed to be, then decide what skills will fit. (DT was suggested because Boggarts could trip you by tying your laces together, how does a huge scary bogyman dive at your legs and trip you? Similarly, Boggarts are small agile creatures that trip you, hence skills like Wrestle, how does that fit with Ag 2?)
WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 20:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the feedback, will go back to the drawing board a bit. Smile

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 20:39 Reply with quote Back to top

WhatBall - my primary reason for adding all the M access was to take away A access from the Boggarts, and thus avoid the powerful Wrodge combo. I don't think you need to add M access to the team as a whole; I did it as a means to offer you a different way of keeping the wrestle and giving the team as a whole a very different flavor. I don't really think Boggarts need M and A access (on singles).
WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 21:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Bogeymen
0-2 Bogeymen 5/4/1/8 Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Grab, Regeneration, Bone-head - SM/GAP 110k
0-2 Bogles 6/3/3/7 Leap, VLL, Disturbing Presence, Regeneration - AM/GSP 100k
0-2 Pranksters 5/1/3/5 Dodge, Side Step, Stunty, Titchy, Stab, Regeneration - A/GSPM 50k
0-16 Boggarts 6/2/3/6 Wrestle, Foul Appearance, Stunty - M/GASP 50k

OK. Went backwards a bit here and removed some skills and such.
- Bogeymen: removed DT, added BH, price drop to 110K with the negatrait.
- Bogles: removed G access, that weakens them a fair bit.
Pranksters: left as is. I think they are fairly priced. They are essentially snots with Regen & Stab, so 50K is fine imo.
- Boggarts: No regen and removed A access, making them very hard to skill. Dropped price to 50K, but you really need some doubles to make some decent Boggarts, and that will also make them expensive.

I think this ends up somewhere between CnB and Nelphine's suggestions...

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JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 21:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Should be Bogeymens

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WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 21:16 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
Should be Bogeymens

Team Big Guy:
0-1 Studmandudebrogeymens 3/7/1/12 Bone-head, Really Stupid, Wild Animal, Piling On, Mighty Blow, Claw S/GSPM

Razz

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 21:21 Reply with quote Back to top

you forgot frenzy and tackle for that guy!
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 21:26 Reply with quote Back to top

WhatBall wrote:
OK. Went backwards a bit here and removed some skills and such.


Whatball,
If I can offer a bit of advice from someone who's been down this road (and have the burn marks to prove it ;D)...

I would suggest taking a further step back. Instead of just jockeying skills, access, and price to make it balanced, go back to the theme of the team. What should the bogeyman be? What does a boggart look/act like? etc. Once you have a firm understanding (at least in your own mind) about these creatures, then think about what skills would make them resemble your image.

Throwing Bone-head on the bogeyman may balance his cost, but why is the bogeyman easily confused? Generally pseudo big guys (st 3-4) shouldn't have the same negatraits as real BGs (St 5-6) because they're just not as good, unless there's some reason for them to have it (other than balancing).

Maybe I've watched Spiderwick with my kids too many times, but I don't see Boggarts as St 2 (I have no idea what they do with them in Harry Potter). Perhaps what I have in my mind for the Boggart is what you call the Prankster.

I think you need to take a bit to consider the theme (or Fluff if you prefer) of the team before trying to jockey stats, skills, and costs.

good luck!
JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 07, 2012 - 21:34 Reply with quote Back to top

WhatBall wrote:

0-1 Studmandudebrogeymens 3/7/1/12 Bone-head, Really Stupid, Wild Animal, Piling On, Mighty Blow, Claw S/GSPM

Razz


Best player all times!

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