JackRose
Joined: Nov 18, 2010
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 Posted:
Mar 14, 2012 - 22:40 |
 
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So I was looking through HM's requirement for posting a new roster (because of COURSE, I'm going to add yet another roster) and one of them is figuring out where a new roster winds up on the tiers. Only, I can't find any mention of Stunty tiers anywhere on the website, and certainly they wouldn't be updated for the new version of BB. So, let's decide what they are!
I based these tiers off of my own opinions, my observances of the games and the lists. Some of the teams, like Gnoblars and Nurglings, I've never actually seen in the games queue. Some, like horrors and gnomes, aren't properly implemented yet. And some lists are just better. So, here you go!!!
Tier One
Strigoyan
Forest Goblin
Chaos Halfling
Goblin Cheaters
Tier Two
Snotling
Skink
Skryre Slaves
Eshin Adepts
Squig Herders
Tier Three
Horrors of Tzeentch
Gnome
Fairies
Pygmy
Nurglings
Gnoblar
What are your observations? |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Mar 14, 2012 - 23:09 |
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I would move Fairies Nurglings and Gnoblars up to 2. Not sure about tzeench but if all the skills worked I would stick them in t2 as well I think.
Id probably drop strigoyan down to 2 aswell. |
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blader4411
Joined: Oct 18, 2009
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Mar 14, 2012 - 23:14 |
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Can't tell accurately in FFB until Bombs and B&C are fixed. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Mar 14, 2012 - 23:31 |
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tiers are evil and a sign of bad game designing |
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Aflo
Joined: Jun 16, 2009
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Mar 14, 2012 - 23:42 |
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| zakatan wrote: | | tiers are evil and a sign of bad game designing |
Disagree. They make things interesting.
Gnomes tier 3? They seem pretty badass from what I've seen. Horrors are pretty sucky, I've been trying them out recently. TTM will hurt you more than not but I've had 2 games won because of it - saying that a +Ag on a greater horror has helped alot - possible buff if we wanted to close the ranks a little. |
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JackRose
Joined: Nov 18, 2010
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Mar 15, 2012 - 02:26 |
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| Garion wrote: | I would move Fairies Nurglings and Gnoblars up to 2. Not sure about tzeench but if all the skills worked I would stick them in t2 as well I think.
Id probably drop strigoyan down to 2 aswell. |
If we move everyone to tier 2, what's the point of the tiers? Why don't we just say, "Goblins Rock and Pygmys suck!"?
I strongly disagree with moving Strigoyan to tier two. They are, if anything, broken in stunty at high levels. Played a game against high level vamps with 5 dudes with Block, Tackle, Mighty Blow and a smattering of Piling On, plus a full roster of thralls and a ridiculous 5 rerolls. How do you beat that exactly? Thralls are too cheap, and Vamps should only get Strength on doubles. They are much worse at low levels, but everyone gets blodge at 6spps, so that doesn't last long.
| Quote: | | Gnomes tier 3? They seem pretty badass from what I've seen. Horrors are pretty sucky, I've been trying them out recently. TTM will hurt you more than not but I've had 2 games won because of it - saying that a +Ag on a greater horror has helped alot - possible buff if we wanted to close the ranks a little. |
I've only seen gnomes play once, and they lost. I was impressed with the Daredevil, and highly impressed with AV8 vs stabbers. They may be tier two; I was basing their tier largely on the fact that so many of their skills aren't implemented. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Mar 15, 2012 - 02:37 |
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| blader4411 wrote: | | Can't tell accurately in FFB until Bombs and B&C are fixed. |
I agree.
| zakatan wrote: | | tiers are evil and a sign of bad game designing |
I agree more! |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2012 - 02:53 |
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Coming purely from a Chaos Halfling and Squig viewpoint:
Strigoyan (at less than 1500 TV) are tier 3; they eat themselves up for no particular benefit. Obviously, at high TV, they are well developed killers; however, I think Skryre Slaves are better killers, almost always.
Squigs are tier 3 - they look scary but if you can have less than 12 players out by the end of the game, you've had some crazy good luck - and their maneuverability is absolutely terrible due to requiring lino goblins wherever they start AND wherever they end. So generally, no matter how well the squigs start out doing, by the end they have few touchdowns, and so few players that the opponent can catch up even if they were losing.
Chaos Halfling are tier 1, but this may be due to Saws not being secret weapons - 5 effective killers is very strong in Stunty. Tier 2 if Saws were sent off as per CRP secret weapon.
Snotlings are tier 1 (mostly due to B&C not being implemented, so 5 big guys, 2 with G access, is just crazy, and regen on the little guys means they don't lose enough of them for the really stupid to become a huge problem). Probably tier 2 with B&C.
Goblin Cheaters are tier 1, but again due to B&C not being implemented. Probably tier 2 with B&C due to lack of strength.
Skryre Slaves are tier 1 IF they get the cas rolling, which they ought to do, tier 2 in those rare situations they can't break armour.
Nurglings are tier 3 - even with regen, they are generally too slow and low agi to actually score touchdowns much.
No one else has stood out as particularly strong/weak, so default to tier 2, although that is largely from lack of experience (my Chaos Flings quickly grew in TV, up to 1720, and no one wants to play them now, except 1 snotling team and 1 skryre slave team that regularly smash me so I don't want to play them every time.) |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:09 |
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placing any races into tiers is a silly idea...
races have strengths against teams, and weaknesses against others...what's the standard for decisions?....there's no universal guidelines on how the tiers are determined, each coach determines their own qualifications, so every coach is going to look at it differently...
the only purpose "tiers" serves is for theorycrafting....when it comes down to balance, and system compatibility, there is no tier system..
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2012 - 09:43 |
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| JackRose wrote: | | So I was looking through HM's requirement for posting a new roster |
I am not officially involved in the design of the Stunty Division. These are simply my observations, and the direction I would like to see the division go in. |
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JackRose
Joined: Nov 18, 2010
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Mar 15, 2012 - 14:03 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | placing any races into tiers is a silly idea...
races have strengths against teams, and weaknesses against others...what's the standard for decisions?....there's no universal guidelines on how the tiers are determined, each coach determines their own qualifications, so every coach is going to look at it differently...
the only purpose "tiers" serves is for theorycrafting....when it comes down to balance, and system compatibility, there is no tier system..
--j |
You mean theorycrafting like if you wanted to make a new Stunty roster and needed to determine the relative strengths and weakness of the other rosters so as to determine where your idea might fit in without a lot of hard playing data? Well that's true enough. Mind you I'd prefer hard data, but as far as I know it doesn't exist, certainly not with the league having been fully implemented less than a week ago. If anyone wants to pipe up with comparative team records, that'd be something.
| Quote: | | I am not officially involved in the design of the Stunty Division. These are simply my observations, and the direction I would like to see the division go in. |
You sneaky git! Who is involved then? For that matter, how do we make changes to the wiki? They are woefully outdated.
| Quote: | | Strigoyan (at less than 1500 TV) are tier 3; they eat themselves up for no particular benefit. Obviously, at high TV, they are well developed killers; however, I think Skryre Slaves are better killers, almost always. |
Disagree with you on this one. Even at low TV, they get halflings at a 25% discount. You could probably make a pretty decent team at low TV with the Lord, a bunch of undercosted thralls and some inducements. |
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polardragon
Joined: May 07, 2011
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Mar 15, 2012 - 14:21 |
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Goblin cheaters are broken until ball and chain are implemented.
2 strength 6 guys with no negatraits?? Really?
2 saws with no secret weapon?? Seriously? |
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Shraaaag
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
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Mar 15, 2012 - 14:37 |
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Not sure if I'd place Forset Goblins in tier 1.
Their shaman (HG, FA and G access) and stikkas (with stabs) are nice. But spider riders are not substitute for big guys. However I wouldn't change their roster, as they are strong against some teams, and weak against others. As it should be. I guess I'll just hop onto the "no-tier"-boat. |
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JackRose
Joined: Nov 18, 2010
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2012 - 15:32 |
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| zakatan wrote: | | tiers are evil and a sign of bad game designing |
Funny you mention that, since Stunty is, as far as I can tell, the only part of the game that the fumbbl community can affect that design of. And there ARE tiers, or at least teams of varying strength.
| Quote: | Not sure if I'd place Forset Goblins in tier 1.
Their shaman (HG, FA and G access) and stikkas (with stabs) are nice. But spider riders are not substitute for big guys. However I wouldn't change their roster, as they are strong against some teams, and weak against others. As it should be. I guess I'll just hop onto the "no-tier"-boat. |
Having played with and against Forest Goblins, I have no doubt that they are tier one. In fact, I've only seen them lose once, and that was to the high tv Strigoyans I mentioned. The core of the list is the stikkas. Yeah Spiders suck, but the stikkas are so good they make up for it.
| Quote: | Goblin cheaters are broken until ball and chain are implemented.
2 strength 6 guys with no negatraits?? Really?
2 saws with no secret weapon?? Seriously? |
Chainsaws kick back and hurt the wielder, plus cause the saw to die if they get blocked. Not saying they aren't good, 'cause they are, but they don't worry me overmuch. Fanatics are pretty awesome, and hard to block. Fortunately there are chainsaws!  |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 15, 2012 - 15:42 |
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On the other end JackRose - the only time my Spriggans (cflings) played forest goblins, the stikka's failed to dent my armour (my woefully overpowered AV 6) for the entire game. And stab offers nothing else (not even a pushback), and with no other big guys for bashing, if stab doesn't work, the entire team gets butchered pretty quick. Saws (if re-rolls are solely dedicated to them) are almost completely reliable; and if you have 100k inducements, you foul with them like mad too, which is something stikkas can't do. 2 Saws is far more dangerous than 4 stikkas. I again say: almost all teams are tier 2, with the exception of B&C and Saws not having any drawback skills at the moment and so being tier 1, and a few teams (squigs, nurgle, strig in early stages) being tier 3. Which means, to a large extent, there aren't really any tiers except for misimplemented skills.
On Strigoyan: Lets say you play just a lord and thralls; sure you might get some inducements against your opponent's, but in Stunty, many of the teams (see: saws/stikkas/all big guys) need virtually no skills in order to be truly lethal to stunties. The lord by himself simply can't cause enough damage to fight back against 3-5 killers on the other team, even if you have inducements. If you start adding in vamplings (even with a few skills), their bloodlust is almost as dangerous as the other teams killers, meaning that until your vamplings are highly skilled (3+), your strigoyan team just can't match any of the bash from the other teams. Or that's what I've seen. And unlike Vampires, Strigoyan can't outball the opposing teams either. |
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