Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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 Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 09:58 |
 
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Since my Bray Herd roster appears ready to move to the Play-testing stage and since I've had some complaints that it was too conventional... I'd like to introduce you to my latest project...
The Horrors of Tzeentch!*
The Changer of Ways has long been interested in the chaos and mayhem found on the Bloodbowl pitch and has recently begun to send his minions forth from the Chaos Wastes to engage in this amusing sport. Unable to convince any of the major teams to agree to a match against Daemons, Tzeentch began using magic to hide his teams' true nature until just after the game began. Many a recent team has had the misfortune to schedule a match against what they believed was a well known traveling team, only to watch in horror as the opposing team's flesh melted away just after the start of the match, revealing the hideous daemons underneath. Bloodbowl fans being bloodbowl fans, they are not about to let something so trivial come between them and a good match and so the games usually continue lest everyone involved face a worse horror... A Pitch Invasion! The referees do their best to keep things on the level, often managing to eventually remove some of the beasts such as the Firewyrms and Flamers.
Horrors of Tzeentch
These shambling daemons consist of innumerable variations of shape, size, and color. As they move they bump, jostle and toss each other about in a swirling mass of chaotic motion. These creatures may be small, but their resilience should not be underestimated.
Greater Horror of Tzeentch
These are larger specimens of the typical Horror. Their size makes them tougher and faster and impossible to throw. Despite their more predictable movements, Greater Horrors are favored by the Lord of Change and therefore can be even more dangerous when confronted face to face.
Flamers of Tzeentch
These beings resemble an upturned mushroom and move by leaping and bounding using their large springlike stalks. At the ends of their thick tendril-like arms, Flamers, as their name would suggest, have fiery maws instead of hands that can belch forth explosive balls of flame.
Firewyrms of Tzeentch
Firewyrms' huge bodies constantly ripple and shift with the power of change, their skin blistering into eyes and gaping maws which belch forth balls of fire. Lurching chaotically about their distended limbs lash out at any who stand in its way. In many ways they are the most bizarre of all of Tzeentch's servants, yet they share his favor more than most.
The Horrors of Tzeentch!
0-2 Firewyrm of Tzeentch 120000 4 5 4 8 Bombardier, Foul Appearence, Leader, No Hands, Pro, Regenerate, Safe Throw, Wild Animal A S P M
0-2 Flamer of Tzeentch 90000 6 3 3 7 Bombardier, Leap, No Hands, Regenerate, Safe Throw, Very Long Legs A P
0-2 Greater Horror of Tzeentch 70000 5 2 3 7 Dodge, Jump Up, Regenerate, Throw Team-mate G A M
0-16 Horror of Tzeentch 50000 4 2 3 7 Dodge, Jump Up, Regenerate, Right Stuff, Stunty, Throw Team-mate A M
Re-roll counter: 60000 gold pieces each
Apothecary: No
Wizard: No
Star Players:
Screamers of Tzeentch are daemonic creatures which resemble flying stingrays that soar through the sky on the Winds of Magic. Drawn to this plane by the concentrated emotions of hatred, fear, and pain that occur on the Bloodbowl Pitch, they swoop down on foes and cut them apart with their sharp tusks and spiked tails.
300K Screamer of Tzeenctch 8 3 4 7 Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut, No Hands, Regeneration, Wild Animal |
Last edited by Craftnburn on %b %27, %2012 - %17:%Feb; edited 18 times in total |
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cabbagedude
Joined: Jan 22, 2005
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Sep 07, 2007 - 10:26 |
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The first couple of things I can see are:
TTM on all the basic linesman? I thought you couldn't have it on anyone under strength 3, and having everyone with it means that if they're lucky with the dice they can surround the ball with players no matter where it is. I think that should definitly be removed.
10MA with dauntless and physical access, if you get horns on it it'll be one of the, if not the best blitzer in stunty, and even if it doesn't get horns, it's still damn good. Drop the MA quite a bit or get rid of the dauntless.
Safe throw as a starting skill on a bomber? It might be balanced out by the cost, but it still seems overpowered to me. Also, I don't know if someone with no hands can have bombs.
There seems to be no reason why everyone in the team has regen, either drop the armour on each by one or remove regen and drop the cost appropriately.
Sorry to say it, but definitely not as good a starting roster as the bray herd. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Sep 07, 2007 - 15:43 |
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| cabbagedude wrote: | | TTM on all the basic linesman? I thought you couldn't have it on anyone under strength 3, and having everyone with it means that if they're lucky with the dice they can surround the ball with players no matter where it is. I think that should definitly be removed. |
TTM counts as a Pass action and you still only get one pass action per turn!
The best you can hope for is to fling one horror downfield each turn, pray it survives the landing, hope your opponent suffers Another turnover before he can secure the ball or smash the guy you were lucky enough to get downfield, and then somehow manage to get the ball yourself and survive the likely 2 turns it would take to score (MA4 remember).
| cabbagedude wrote: | | 10MA with dauntless and physical access, if you get horns on it it'll be one of the, if not the best blitzer in stunty, and even if it doesn't get horns, it's still damn good. Drop the MA quite a bit or get rid of the dauntless. |
Yes, it may be the best Blitzer in stunty (someone has to be the best) when Dauntless WORKS, but when it doesn't (or if someone catches up to it) it's St1 AV6 Stunty with no G access... it goes splat! That's the point.. very good when hitting, but can get squished easily. Even if it's lucky enough to get some horns it inevitably won't survive long. It also can't do much with the ball even if it blitzes it loose since it has no hands!
| cabbagedude wrote: | | Safe throw as a starting skill on a bomber? It might be balanced out by the cost, but it still seems overpowered to me. Also, I don't know if someone with no hands can have bombs. |
Overpowered? It's not like he's lobbing TD passes. If your game depends on you intercepting a Bomb, then you're already in trouble. Plus, should be rather difficult to intercept a ball of fire don't you think?
And Yes I assure you you can have Bombs on a No Hands guy, No Hands simply governs picking up, catching, or holding the ball.
| cabbagedude wrote: | | There seems to be no reason why everyone in the team has regen, either drop the armour on each by one or remove regen and drop the cost appropriately. |
They have Regen because they're Daemons (like Beasts and Nurglings). Bear in mind that a successful Regen (only 50%) doesn't keep you on the field, just available for the next drive. Also bear in mind that it's important to keep players on the field who actually have Hands so lower AV would cripple the team.
| cabbagedude wrote: | | Sorry to say it, but definitely not as good a starting roster as the bray herd. |
Thanks for the comments, but I think you might have misunderstood some of the game mechanics involved. Please take another look now that I've (hopefully  ) clarified some things. |
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cabbagedude
Joined: Jan 22, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 18:55 |
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Yeah, looks like the worries about the TTM and the no hands were me just being ignorant.
I still think the disc will be too strong, do you remember the talk about an eagle type blitzer in I think the deadlings thread, essentially the same thing, just with claws already and no phy access. I'll leave this up to others to dwell upon though, see what they think.
For safe throw, I don't know why I don't like it, it just doesn't seem... right to me. But once again I'll let others think about it, and give their views.
I'll concede that regen does make sense but I think they should have lower AV and a lower price, because at 60k I believe they'd be the most expensive of the normal stunty linesman, and I think that because of the amount of no hands in the team, the coach would have to make a choice of whether he wants more fragile ball handlers to score with or more bigger bashier things, instead of him having both the bigger hitters and durable ball carriers.
Also, players with right stuff and TTM should clearly be able to throw themselves.  |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 19:13 |
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| cabbagedude wrote: | | I'll concede that regen does make sense but I think they should have lower AV and a lower price, because at 60k I believe they'd be the most expensive of the normal stunty linesman, and I think that because of the amount of no hands in the team, the coach would have to make a choice of whether he wants more fragile ball handlers to score with or more bigger bashier things, instead of him having both the bigger hitters and durable ball carriers. |
The higher AV is pretty critical to keep enough players on the field to be able to score. And the price is due to Jump Up which is pretty good on them (and encourages TTM attempts ).
The Spawn is really the only bashy thing on the roster. The Spawn is the hammer while the Screamers are the scalpel. The discs are very interesting IMO, but surprisingly haven't been commented on. And the Horrors may be "durable ball carriers" but are pretty slow (Unless they TTM ).
| cabbagedude wrote: | | Also, players with right stuff and TTM should clearly be able to throw themselves. |
That would be like Super-Leap! (Just imagine if you could combine TTM, Right Stuff, and Hail Mary!  ) But the client doesn't allow it. (I tried!  ) |
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Hero164
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
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Sep 07, 2007 - 19:23 |
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Got to say I agree about regen on everyone being overpowered. Deamons don't regen in general they pop back to the warp so fluffwise removing it is not unreasonable.
I dont think TTM on all the linesmen is fair either as it takes away the tactics of freeing up your thrower and will basically ALWAYS give the team a 1 turn td chance. Especially combined with jumpup and a free wizard as it will simply be ttm. fireball any opposition jumpup and score. I'm not saying it wouldnt be a lot of fun for the player involved but it too good once players start to skill up.
These are the two main concerns I would have on this. |
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Hero164
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
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Sep 07, 2007 - 19:25 |
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Skulll
Joined: Dec 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 19:33 |
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av 6 ain't too fragile... av 6 is the average stunty av... make it av 4 and then it's even remotely ok.
MA 10 is too much, combined with stunty ag 4 supported with dauntless... that's just ridicilous... Moves double the amount average stunty moves in 2 turns in one turn, dodges to everywhere with 2+ (diving tackle not included) and 1d blocks/blitzes any stunty in almost anywhere...
Dauntless doesn't too much fail against ST 2, and can't fail vs. ST1. And now that big guys don't get block, even they don't get the dodgers down too easily...
AG 4 + stunty is something that should only be gained through skill rolls.... |
Last edited by Skulll on %b %07, %2007 - %19:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 19:34 |
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| Hero164 wrote: | | Got to say I agree about regen on everyone being overpowered. Deamons don't regen in general they pop back to the warp so fluffwise removing it is not unreasonable. |
Would an Apothecary make any more sense? Obviously not, but giving them neither would make the team almost unplayable.
| Hero164 wrote: | | I dont think TTM on all the linesmen is fair either as it takes away the tactics of freeing up your thrower and will basically ALWAYS give the team a 1 turn td chance. Especially combined with jumpup and a free wizard as it will simply be ttm. fireball any opposition jumpup and score. I'm not saying it wouldnt be a lot of fun for the player involved but it too good once players start to skill up. |
They still only get 1 fireball per game. MA4 means the thrower must be pretty close to the LOS for you to be able to score. And remember if the TTM guy has the ball, Jump Up doesn't matter since when he crashes it's a turnover.
| Hero164 wrote: | | One further thought, why pro on a ball and chain guy, will that allow him to reroll his exausted roll? |
Because he is the favored of Tzeentch who is the chaos god of Luck (among other things). |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 19:38 |
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I don't think any team should have so much No Hands. Add in the Ball and Chain too, and the team only has one position on the roster which can actually use the ball.
The occasional, rare positional which can't handle the ball can be acceptable in some situations, but in general I think that Blood Bowl should be played by players who can actually play Blood Bowl! |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 19:42 |
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| Skulll wrote: | av 6 ain't too fragile... av 6 is the average stunty av... make it av 4 and then it's even remotely ok.
MA 10 is too much, combined with stunty ag 4 supported with dauntless... that's just ridicilous... Moves double the amount average stunty moves in 2 turns in one turn, dodges to everywhere with 2+ (diving tackle not included) and 1d blocks/blitzes any stunty in almost anywhere... |
The MA is only slightly more than a skink or GR, and considering they're flying ABOVE everyone, dodging SHOULD be easy.
| Skulll wrote: | | Dauntless doesn't too much fail against ST 2, and can't fail vs. ST1. And now that big guys don't get block, even they don't get the dodgers down too easily... |
It might not fail often, but WHEN it does you're looking at a -2 or likely -3 die block.
| Skulll wrote: | | AG 4 + stunty is something that should only be gained through skill rolls.... |
Remember that Screamers have No Hands, so Dodging is the only thing the AG is used for. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 19:45 |
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| pac wrote: | I don't think any team should have so much No Hands. Add in the Ball and Chain too, and the team only has one position on the roster which can actually use the ball.
The occasional, rare positional which can't handle the ball can be acceptable in some situations, but in general I think that Blood Bowl should be played by players who can actually play Blood Bowl! |
Lol among the repeated complaints I heard regarding my Bray Herd roster was that they were't "wacky" enough, and that the "regular stunties" should be carrying the ball, not the positionals. Now it's reversed.
That's the dilemma of a Horrors coach.. how many "special" guys to field on a drive and how many Horrors. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 19:50 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | | pac wrote: | I don't think any team should have so much No Hands. Add in the Ball and Chain too, and the team only has one position on the roster which can actually use the ball.
The occasional, rare positional which can't handle the ball can be acceptable in some situations, but in general I think that Blood Bowl should be played by players who can actually play Blood Bowl! |
Lol among the repeated complaints I heard regarding my Bray Herd roster was that they were't "wacky" enough, and that the "regular stunties" should be carrying the ball, not the positionals. Now it's reversed. |
No, it's not a question of who 'should' be carrying the ball - on the Bray roster, all the players are capable of doing so, the issue is just over which is most suited to doing it.
The problem is that you have a whole bunch of players who physically cannot do it. If they were AG 1, fair enough - there are plenty of high-scoring Saurus. But players who cannot handle the ball whatsoever should be very rare in BB - certainly not 4 out of 5 positions on a list (even a Stunty list). |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 20:36 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | | Hero164 wrote: | | Got to say I agree about regen on everyone being overpowered. Deamons don't regen in general they pop back to the warp so fluffwise removing it is not unreasonable. |
Would an Apothecary make any more sense? Obviously not, but giving them neither would make the team almost unplayable.
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Call it a wizard or paying for "daemonic bindings" or something. Give them an apoth. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 20:45 |
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BTW, I don't like this team purely on fluffemy grounds. I haven't really looked at it yet but these are DAEMONS. They are DAEMONIC.
If you want to see how I see a daemon team (not nurglings) looking then look at the damon teams released back with the Bretonian and first Amazon, Norse, Khemri, Vampire, Lizardmen list's.
Basicly, the list's for each power were a normal chaos list, minus the big guy, plus two "lesser" daemons (worth about 120k+ each) and one Greater daemon of mass slaughter. No daemons (except blue horrors, who appeared when your pink horrors died) were less than St 3 or remotely stunty. Please don't degrade them just to fit with stunty.
On the other hand, I would like these list's ressurected alot. Would someone please try the few "real" daemons approach please. Or else I will, be warned. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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