Brainsaw
Joined: Sep 27, 2005
|
 Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 16:03 |
 
|
Discussion came up about Elves picking and avoiding Basher/hard Teams in the UI Prediction/Banter/Fluff Thread.
Yes the matter was discussed before. Several times i guess. But circumstances might have changed as some coaches, who i appreciate very much, said some interesting things about this.
And as i love Elfbows and are a committed elven Coach, i want to open this Thread.
First i quote some vital Posts on this matter i found and then ill put in my points here.
It seems all started with the Cut being surprisingly high in the UI and some coaches believing, that there are still too many Elven Teams picking in R to push themselves issue.
Have a look here:
https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=26122&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 |
|
|
Brainsaw
Joined: Sep 27, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 16:03 |
|
| NerdBird wrote: | | What a total crapper. This just proves there are too many elves picking away in Ranked. Everytime I greenlight one these teams in the future I am going to seethe with anger when they will not play. I guess this is the perfect tournament for elves to participate in....... |
| Stonetroll wrote: | A tourney that actively discourages minmaxing, sign me up! Oh wait, I'm already in  |
| NerdBird wrote: | | Kam wrote: | Just some stats for the Light Qualifier:
Number of elf teams: 20
Average number of games: 52
Team having played 50 to 74 games: 3
75 to 99 games: 2
More than 100 games: 1 (272 games)
Average percentage of games versus elves: 29,81%
9 teams are under 30%
2 teams are above 50%
Average percentage of games versus other races viewed as "soft" (Stunties, Vamps, Slanns, Rats): 19,6%
Average percentage of games versus soft teams (elves + the races quoted above): 49,41%
10 teams are above 50%, including 3 teams above 75%
---------------------
Not much to say about those numbers. Some of those teams should be banned IMHO, or at least receive a big warning, but I was expecting much more picking. What disappoints me the most is the overall youth of the teams. |
And a lot of those numbers that those teams played against those "tougher" races were in their first 5 games where the risk is minimal (retire and move on if the game is a bust) or they played teams, that were WELL down in TV or they played against a team that was having trouble. There is no doubt a lot of those teams do not belong in a major.
I honestly hope they get smashed to oblivion. Yeah, I am bitter. I got bumped in the first round of the last major by a far superior claw pomber and now I don't get to play because my team was not as cool as picky elves...... |
| PaddyMick wrote: | @Kam and Nerdbird
Having entered a team you probably don't approve of, I feel I need defend my choice.
I've entered a HE team at 2430tv that's young - 38 games, just above 50% of which were against 'soft' opposition.
I made the team specifically to play this tournament. I chose HE because I had not played them before and it seemed a nice fit for the UI. I got lucky with stat rolls and soon had a monster team.
What I don't get is why this is a problem. Sure, I picked sometimes especially when the tourney was close and I had a good team to protect, or more often than not, got offered good and fair match ups. The races you describe as 'soft' make up almost 50% of the total races in BB, so why is playing vs them 50% of the time a bad thing?
It's just how ranked works, and this is a ranked major.
Should I have done something differently? Genuinely, I want to be one of the good guys and welcome your feedback. If what I have done is unsportsmanlike please let me know. |
| Harad wrote: | In order to win a ranked major, it is going to be very useful to have a strong team. You are going to be more likely to have a strong team if you develop that team carefully.
You can take on the danger teams (although these are rarely fair match ups because the ranked chaos are themselves being more selective than this) and show how adaptable a coach you are, but it will lessen the chances of winning a major.
So I think/hope this is an observation on the difficulty of mixing competition with hobby in an environment which encourages certain behaviours.
The observation on people is that they hopefully aim to provide enough diversity to make the hobby enjoyable for others as well as looking after their own interests. As Happygrue says, in my experience PaddyMick you are plenty on the right side of that line. |
| PainState wrote: | Just some stats from the dark qualifier
NOTE: Due to time constraints I only complied the stats from the first 3 qualifier groups: Steel, Obsidian and Crimson. Also my head was about to explode due to the massive time sink doing all 8 would require.
# of BASH Teams (Chaos, Nurgle, Orc and Chaos Dwarf)
Number of Bash teams in those three qualifiers: 15 out of 24. IN JUST 3 Qualifier Groups of the 8.
Average # of games: 131.8 Take out FleetFoot Revenge: 91.2
Teams having played 50-74 games: 1
75-99 games: 4
100+ games: 5 (FleetFoot was top “dog” at 700)
** Note on all the stats I did them with FleetFoot added in and taking them out due to large # of matches in the sampling. **
Avg % of matches against BASH Teams: 37.6% Minus FleetFoot: 35.5%
Average percentage of games versus other races viewed as "hard" : Dwarf, Khemri, Necro and Chaos Pact:
Avg %: 22.5% minus FleetFoot: 22.16%
Average % of matches VS Bash and Hard teams: 60.14% Minus FleetFoot: 57.71%
Average % of matches vs ELVES: 16.28% minus FleetFoot: 17.69%
6 Teams have never played against Pro Elf.
So, what does this all mean?
Well here are my observations based on my experience on FUMBBL.
#1 Elves pick
#2 Bashers as defined by above play against each other at a higher % that even Elves playing against each other. Why? Well since elves are pickers and tweeners are generally pickers the Bashers can only really pick amongst themselves.
#3 When you add in the Hard teams, as I defined them, this dynamic grows even larger than the Elves + Soft Teams stat line Kam produced. So bashers are playing around 60% of their matches against just 8 races and around 16% against the four Elf races. Note how the % increased when I removed FleetFoot which tells me no sane elf coach would ever play those guys if not forced to. :}
#4 The Higher your TV the more segregated Ranked becomes. Bashers all huddle together and head butt each other, Elves run off and play in the woods and the tweeners sit around in a bar getting drunk and just wonder if they can get a match that is not obviously slanted against them by a basher or baller team.
#5 Elves are notorious pixel huggers. You can see that by the Avg. # of matches they play. Bashers on the other hand do not mind churning a roster and getting guys smashed to kingdom come and do not rage retire after a few set backs.
We all know deep down elves are bunch of cry babies. Why are we stunned to find out they retire left and right after a few of their players are sent to the RIP bin?
#6 If “we” want to look at the elves, team by team and say this team or that team should be banned or forced retired for playing a large % of matches against only elves or soft teams.
I say in the interest of fairness all Bash teams who play a large% of matches against just Bash should also be forced retired or banned for picking.
The Final big conclusion
#7 Coaches in general haves “issues” with elves for the most basic of reasons: they are envious. Once you get the +Stat upgrades rolling on an elf roster they become monsters of the most important aspect of Blood Bowl to win….BALLING. Coupled with they blodge up easy on normal skill ups so now they DRIVE YOU INSANE.
Then we find out they are pixel huggers, hoarding +STAT monsters on their team, taking little attrition on key players and boxers are turned into bikini thongs in RAGE. NUFFLE forbid they show up to Majors with these monstrosities and get us all worked up. Just makes you want to POMBT up and smash them in their nice fancy noses. Oh, so that is why the Buccaneers can never seem to arrange a match against elves, the rage is building up! |
| PainState wrote: | A coach PMed me and said my stats were not apples to apples because the sampling size was not 20 elves and 20 bashers.
Fine, I took the next 5 bashers down the line and added them in. I did not split out FleetFoot for two seperate %..
#of Bash teams: 20
Avg. Number of Matches played: 121.8
% of matches against Bash: 35.71%
% of matches against Hard: 22.12%
% of matches against Bash + Hard: 57.84%
% of matches against elves: 16.5%
There you go..an even sample size. |
|
Last edited by Brainsaw on %b %22, %2015 - %16:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
|
Brainsaw
Joined: Sep 27, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 16:03 |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 16:09 |
|
If there are that many applicants, I do not understand the reasoning of the administration not to up the number of allowed teams.. thats all. |
|
|
Jim_Fear
Joined: May 02, 2014
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 16:12 |
|
Discussion:
The coach who derailed the UI fluff post onto the topic of elven picking habits is a legendary crybaby, and as a coach, a picker himself. How many dwarf teams does one need? |
_________________
 |
|
C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 16:25 |
|
We Elfs have to have some standards Wreckage. |
|
|
Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 16:51 |
|
Whilst I am not sure whether picking to mainly play soft teams is a good thing for the site one of the main things I would say is, if this were truly a problem then elf teams would be dominating the ranked tournaments. From what I have seen in my short time and looking back through recent tournaments this seems to be far from the case. So whilst I might not completely agree with the approach (I'm sure I fall into it as well) it doesn't look like something that needs a great deal of addressing. |
|
|
happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 17:08 |
|
| Wreckage wrote: | | If there are that many applicants, I do not understand the reasoning of the administration not to up the number of allowed teams.. thats all. |
This is the *one* tournament where the rules are a small, high TV pool without expansion. That seems clear to me, based on the wording of the description. In most other tournaments there is room for expansion and sometimes there is (despite a lot of filler teams sometimes!) and sometimes there isn't. I like that there is *one* tournament where there will not be that expansion to lower TV teams regardless of how many applicants there are. Filler teams annoy me!
With regard to the topic, I think it's sad to see the real elf farming when it happens but it's not the worst problem that we have either. Those pure elfball teams that do well in the elfy XFL tend to be massed blodge and lots of tackle because they play other elves. That is all well and good, but a leaner elf team with the right parts and coming in with some inducements and a deeper bench is going to be able to win against a lot of different types of teams, IMHO.
I like to play a variety of match ups above all else here, and since I play both the box and ranked that means my ranked games tend to be targeted at the races I don't play against as often and I don't play as often against the handful of races I see in the box all the time. Personally, I'd play against bash a lot more in ranked if the box wasn't the place that it is, but I get tired of playing against the same Chaos and CD teams enough that I don't usually feel game for it in ranked. |
_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!
 |
|
Brainsaw
Joined: Sep 27, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 17:13 |
|
Have a look at the Gamefinder. There is usually 0 sometimes 1 or 2 Elven Team there in TW Range 1500 - 2100 TW.
I have watched that very closely for the last months.
Yes. I actively seek Elfbowl Games! Call me Picker, because i want to pick the type of game i play.
My main reason to do so is, because i want to have a game, whose tactical aspects mainly consists of Positioning, Timing, Order of Sequence, Chances and Decisions and not merely just by blocking/blitzing and taking out players.
The welcome side effect is, that i actively dont support any basher teams in developing their bash skills and by that worsening the situation on the Gamefinder....
Elven Teams usually get battered during a Tourney (as will the Basher Teams), but the big difference is that it is usually way more expensive to compensate the losses for elven Teams
AND
that elven Teams usually dont have a big Stash to spend during the Tourney to substitute maimed players!
AND whats mostly forgotten: You need only one ClawPOmber to put up a huge Threat but you need Fend on all Players to defend against it effectively!
Additionally there is the aspect of Coach Status.
With Legend Status its not only the rare numbers of Elven Teams on the Gamefinder. There is only a limited number of coaches willing to play Super Stars/Legends!
I can say: to find an Elfbowl is pretty hard these days!
With my four Elven Teams i currently mainly play i have not been able reach insanely high TW.
I cannot see a big Elf Team pushing/picking issue here. (And i am seriously trying! ,-)))
I see a racial distribution/diversity Issue on the Gamefinder though.
On the matter of the mentioned stats:
Bashers have to play other bashers due to missing alternatives.
Elven Teams seeking Recovery Games wont play Bashers and the Rest will propably not play Bashers because of my mentioned reasons above.
No matter why, they are allowed to do so.
Last but not least:
What if Elf Coaches were not allowed to play Elfbowls? As a consequence less and less Elf Teams would participate in Tourneys, leaving only bashers to play.
Is that the kind of BB you want?
The current situation in the Gamefinder seems like a harbinger of that.
And yes, i do love and enjoy to play all other teams in Tourneys. |
|
|
Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 17:35 |
|
| Brainsaw wrote: | Have a look at the Gamefinder. There is usually 0 sometimes 1 or 2 Elven Team there in TW Range 1500 - 2100 TW.
I have watched that very closely for the last months.
|
^This. I keep hearing about this thing called Elfbowl. I have yet to encounter it. Most of the time when I activate my Elf teams there are no other Elves at all. If there are any in my TV range they usually won't play me. |
|
|
MisterFurious
Joined: Aug 11, 2010
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 17:46 |
|
People are always complaining about Ranked being nothing but cherry-picking Elves and Black Box is nothing but Chaos killing everything and yet, whenever I look at the 'Current Games' list, I see nothing but variety in both groups. Right now in Ranked, I see three Dark Elf teams, (one playing Humans, one playing Lizardmen, and one playing Orcs) and an Elf team playing against a Chaos Pact team. In Black Box I only see three Chaos teams and just as many Undead as well as two Goblins, Two Vampires, Amazons, Underworld, Dark Elf, Skaven, ect. ect. I spectate a lot of games during the day and it's ALWAYS like this. The fact is, this forum is polluted by a bunch of whiny cry-babies that only see what they want to see. |
|
|
Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 17:54 |
|
Extreme picking should be mocking and shaming material. But it's not. It's actually a "strategy" recommended on the forum (like the one time I asked something about Woodies on the forum... the main advice was "don't play Undead, they have MB" - yeah, right...).
You're saying you don't find many games as a Legend, yet you refuse games versus 2/3 of the teams on GF. You're saying cPOMB is a PITA, but actually 2 of the 4 Elf teams are immune to claws, and the other 2 have AV8 players. You're saying that Elfbowling is really hard these days and that none of the 4 teams you play have "insanely high TV", but 1 is at 2400TV (and 2 others are above 1900TV)... I have never, ever, reached that TV for the sole reason if you play against a variety of races, your own team is gonna get crushed on a regular basis, and that's how Blood Bowl is balanced. Keep that in mind: it's harder for Orcs for instance to reach that TV, for the sole reason past a certain TV the only games they will find will be against cPOMBers (or dorfs).
Sorry if that post sounds rude, but I can't let you say that. I understand Grue's point of view, and I have no problem with that. I even understand that people pick. But please, don't come up with false excuses.
And seriously... Some freakin Stunty coaches have been moked for picking, but no one seems to have an issue with Elves only playing against Elves. They call that "strategy". Can't you see a problem here? |
_________________
GLN 17 is out!
 |
|
Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 17:54 |
|
We're reversing the reality here
1000 pombers teams, cpombers, all identical to another are constantly there, waiting for a "light" teamt bash... 1 or 2 skaven/elf team appear and they have to launch them in the mouth of the dragon to not be called elfballer?
Play between bashers, and have fun in a game where who roll better armor rolls win, and leave people that like pass, movement, side change and the like, to play and have fun their way
Puha! |
|
|
Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 17:58 |
|
You're completely clueless... Do you really think AV rolls win Dorfs vs Dorfs games? Positioning does.
And Elfs roll much more dice than Dorfs for instance, so if you wanna talk about the luck factor... |
_________________
GLN 17 is out!
|
|
happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
|
| Posted:
Mar 22, 2015 - 17:59 |
|
| MisterFurious wrote: | | People are always complaining about Ranked being nothing but cherry-picking Elves and Black Box is nothing but Chaos killing everything and yet, whenever I look at the 'Current Games' list, I see nothing but variety in both groups. Right now in Ranked, I see three Dark Elf teams, (one playing Humans, one playing Lizardmen, and one playing Orcs) and an Elf team playing against a Chaos Pact team. In Black Box I only see three Chaos teams and just as many Undead as well as two Goblins, Two Vampires, Amazons, Underworld, Dark Elf, Skaven, ect. ect. I spectate a lot of games during the day and it's ALWAYS like this. The fact is, this forum is polluted by a bunch of whiny cry-babies that only see what they want to see. |
Good! I was aiming for "whiny cry-baby". I mean, just because the team I've been playing in the box for the past few months has managed 30% Chaos teams in their last 20 games has no bearing on what I'm saying... At least we get recovery games against the UD, Necro and various dorf flavors in between!
Sure there's variety in the box, but it's lop-sided. At low TV you have tons and as you go up it gets to be so lop sided in the other direction it gets stale in a hurry. Fortunately, there are metagroups to keep people interested or it would be even more lop-sided than it is!  |
_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!
|
|
|
|
| |
Gnomes are trash
Search
