Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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May 19, 2015 - 22:31 |
 
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So, in the wake of the 23 page thread on elf pickers and, my skaven team getting demolished in the first game of the GLT, I've started to play a more diverse number of teams I'm also building up some ranked picker Dark Elves who are a mighty blow and sure hands away from being pretty nasty.
In my spare time, I decided to try orcs, which quite predictably did not actually bring the legendary competition banging down the doors. I think they, quite rightly get avoided as the team itself seems to scare off anything without killstack.
So, in my quest for competitive games, I've set aside orcs for now as being too strong for Ranked, and started both a nurgle and a necro team. Now, Jimmy was kind enough to let me pick his brain on Nurgle, but I haven't yet gotten solid advice on Necro from anyone yet. I'm going to post some random thoughts and let you coaches pick them apart.
1) Necro have some very similar players to orcs. The Wights have identical stat lines to orc blitzers, although you do get only half as many. Starting orc blitzers with mighty blow and then taking guard and/or tackle has always worked really well on GS players, and I don't see any reason not to build them in this manner. Dodge on doubles seems like a good idea too. Not sure where to go past these skills, although piling on is obviously an option.
2) Again, the Flesh Golems have the same stat line as Black Orcs, and hopefully I am able to feed them 2-3 touchdowns each as I did with my orcs. They seem really expensive, so I am not sure I want or need them to skill highly. Block/Guard seems like plenty, and if they sit at 16-31spp forever I am okay with that. Giving them mighty blow seems unnecessary, and probably counterproductive to finding fun games in ranked.
3) Ghouls are pretty cool. 7/3/3/7 dodge for 70k is a really good deal, and lack of regen/apothecary doesn't really scare me off. I see them as primary ball carriers, even though I read a lot of advice saying a wolf is your best choice there. Barring an AG4 wolf, I think I'm going to try using the ghoul(s). Initially I am going to roll with one, but top out at a combined 3 wolves/ghouls. Ghouls seem to burn bright and fast, are decent players as rookies, and probably take mighty blow over guard. On undead you might build one wrestle/tackle, but I think on necro the wolves fill that role.
4) Wolves and wardancers seem to like a lot of the same skills. Clearly, getting a double on a wolf changes the complexion of the team, as a mobile claw/mighty blow blitzer is going to be scary for your opponent. Barring stats and doubles, Block, Dodge, Tackle, and Sidestep seems to be the way to go. If you make it this far without a stat/double, I think the wolf becomes an expendable player, to be used aggressively in hopes of cycling him out for a better option.
5) Zombies get block or dirty player, depending on team needs. Second skill is kick, but they are likely better as rookies than with more than one skill. I could see leader or guard on a double, but no stats under any circumstances.
6) Endgame is 2 FG, 2 WI, 2 WW, 1 G, plus assorted zombies. This leaves 4 zombies on the pitch at kickoff, and allowing you to protect both wolves and the ghoul, or both wights as well if desired. in a 3-4-4 defense, you could cover four wolf/ghoul players, but it would be hard to position two ghouls safely during the game. Three WW/G players seems best for both turn 1 defense and general play.
7) Recent necromantic success seems due to a combination of claw/mighty blow, tons of fodder, and regeneration working well against heavy bash... and high speed safeties with tackle taking care of elves. mimicing this formula seems like a good idea. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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May 19, 2015 - 22:48 |
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I would build the wolves as killers, and the rest as support. It means guard instead of mighty blow for most other player. You could go to a different direction by making wights as tacklepombers, but I prefer the other route.
Flesh golems are fully optionals. Not terrible, but not needed. I run without them in the blackbox, and the team is quite serviceable with surfing threat, some dp, and mb on wolf.
You are good with 1 ghoul on the short term, but as they die quickly, you wish you have the other one handy when that happens. as you don't want to ball with wights and werewolves. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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why would i wish to advise you in building a minmaxed version of every team? how does the hobby gain from this?
have you thought about just 'playing' the team and seeing what develops? |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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May 19, 2015 - 23:20 |
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I don't see why a Zombie wouldn't get +S in any circumstances. Ok you love to minmax, but with only 2 S4 players another one in the ruck could be a good thing. |
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Last edited by garyt1 on %b %19, %2015 - %23:%May; edited 2 times in total |
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cdassak
Joined: Oct 23, 2013
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May 19, 2015 - 23:22 |
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Pretty much agree on everything (maybe wait for 5th skill to fire a non-double wolf)
I would consider wrestle for some zombies to assist the fouling game.
I am in the ghouls as carriers/wolves as killers camp too but I have seen some great teams without ghouls.
Golems are indeed optionals at low TV (won the RRR without FGs) but if you want to build a competitive high(er) TV team you absolutely need them.
Also optional is the addition of the second ghoul for defense (wrestle, tackle, strip ball etc) |
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cdassak
Joined: Oct 23, 2013
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May 19, 2015 - 23:22 |
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| garyt1 wrote: | | I don't see why a Zombie wouldn't get +S in any circumstances. Ok you love to minmax, but with only 2 S4 players another one in the ruck could be a good thing. |
+1 |
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PaddyMick
Joined: Jan 03, 2012
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May 20, 2015 - 00:25 |
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| cdassak wrote: | | garyt1 wrote: | | I don't see why a Zombie wouldn't get +S in any circumstances. Ok you love to minmax, but with only 2 S4 players another one in the ruck could be a good thing. |
+1 |
+2 has been great for this team:
https://www.fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=771177 |
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awambawamb
Joined: Feb 17, 2008
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May 20, 2015 - 00:41 |
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| garyt1 wrote: | | I don't see why a Zombie wouldn't get +S in any circumstances. Ok you love to minmax, but with only 2 S4 players another one in the ruck could be a good thing. |
+1 |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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May 20, 2015 - 00:47 |
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What? Orcs are to strong for Ranked? My wood elves chew em up and spit em out. I wish there were more orc teams on GF. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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May 20, 2015 - 00:50 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: |
7) Recent necromantic success seems due to a combination of claw/mighty blow, tons of fodder, and regeneration working well against heavy bash... and high speed safeties with tackle taking care of elves. mimicing this formula seems like a good idea. |
The recent rash of Necro success can be directly related to CPOMB Wolves with a AG4 ball handling ghoul, POMB wights and a 16 man roster. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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May 20, 2015 - 00:54 |
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1) Wights should build with MB/Tackle/PO on one, and MB/Guard on the other. After that you can kind of take what you need. Dodge is ok, but jump up is probably better.
2) I like FGs, give them block/guard and then MB is fine. It's odd you think giving more skills to an expensive player is bad, it better than giving more skills to a cheap player.
3) Ghouls are terrible and totally unnecessary for necro. Skip them entirely.
4) One wolf is ideally your ball carrier with blodge and sure hands. The other ideally is your blitzer with MB and Tackle. You usually will blitz with your pomb wight, but when/if you get your MB wolf he can take over.
5) Ignore skilling zombies at your peril. Especially if you ignore +ST. +AG is a waste though, and +MA isn't great, but 1/3 of them are doubles, and guard is utterly invaluable.
6) Endgame? You're just rule of 4ing right now. Pretty much you set up depending on whom you face, FGs on the line always unless you're facing cpomb spam. AV9 and regen? Who better to eat blocks?
7) Necro play to whatever they roll... you cannot build them into what you want the same way you can build elfs or chaos. You really have to take what you get and adapt your game accordingly. +AG on a wolf is awesome! So is +ST, so is +MA! Yet each of those stat ups give you the opportunity to play the team in a different fashion, so you best understand that. To me Necro are the ultimate hybrid team, but that doesn't mean they do everything decently all the time, it means depending on your skills you build them into being able to do a couple of things very well. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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May 20, 2015 - 01:02 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: | why would i wish to advise you in building a minmaxed version of every team? how does the hobby gain from this?
have you thought about just 'playing' the team and seeing what develops? |
Dude, you're synonymous with min-maxxed box dwarves. Go buy the rest of your troll slayers and runners before running your yam.
Rest - thanks for the tips |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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May 20, 2015 - 02:10 |
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| licker wrote: | | 1) Wights should build with MB/Tackle/PO on one, and MB/Guard on the other. After that you can kind of take what you need. Dodge is ok, but jump up is probably better. |
This sounds like sound advice, and is exactly what I do with skaven. I'm opting out of piling on at the moment though.
| licker wrote: | | 2) I like FGs, give them block/guard and then MB is fine. It's odd you think giving more skills to an expensive player is bad, it better than giving more skills to a cheap player. |
I suppose I am thinking that the next 3 skills for them would be mighty blow, tackle, and piling on. I do think they are pretty nice at just Block/Guard, but I sure as heck wouldn't fire one for skilling to 31.
| licker wrote: | | 3) Ghouls are terrible and totally unnecessary for necro. Skip them entirely. |
I may have to learn this the hard way, not sure I agree at this point.
| licker wrote: | | 4) One wolf is ideally your ball carrier with blodge and sure hands. The other ideally is your blitzer with MB and Tackle. You usually will blitz with your pomb wight, but when/if you get your MB wolf he can take over. |
This would work. I'm going to try it with both Wolves being blitzers for the time being.
| licker wrote: | | 5) Ignore skilling zombies at your peril. Especially if you ignore +ST. +AG is a waste though, and +MA isn't great, but 1/3 of them are doubles, and guard is utterly invaluable. |
Lot of people advising not to skip the +ST zombie. Guess we'll give it a go.
| licker wrote: | | 6) Endgame? You're just rule of 4ing right now. Pretty much you set up depending on whom you face, FGs on the line always unless you're facing cpomb spam. AV9 and regen? Who better to eat blocks? |
Well I was thinking fleshies on the second level with zombies on the line. Is that wrong?
Also, it's rule of 7 I suppose if you want to think that way. I really wasn't, I just didn't want more than one AV7 running around.
| licker wrote: | | 7) Necro play to whatever they roll... you cannot build them into what you want the same way you can build elfs or chaos. You really have to take what you get and adapt your game accordingly. +AG on a wolf is awesome! So is +ST, so is +MA! Yet each of those stat ups give you the opportunity to play the team in a different fashion, so you best understand that. To me Necro are the ultimate hybrid team, but that doesn't mean they do everything decently all the time, it means depending on your skills you build them into being able to do a couple of things very well. |
Yeah, it's interesting coming from elf teams where you can literally put SPP on whoever you want, and the only real variables are who gets +ST/+AG and where the doubles fall. We'll see how it goes.
| PainState wrote: | | What? Orcs are to strong for Ranked? My wood elves chew em up and spit em out. I wish there were more orc teams on GF. |
Hey, you're welcome to come back for the rematch now that they have tackle. PM me and I'll make the time. |
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Badoek
Joined: May 17, 2009
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May 22, 2015 - 11:46 |
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S4 Zombie is good! You stick Zombies to whatever needs to be kept busy. This often results in turn after turn of eating a block, get back up and stick to its target again. That target is often a S4 warrior/BoB so +ST makes that block much less automatic. Goes the same for tying up 2 S3 players. Zombies and Flesh Golems are mostly tying up players and S4 really helps with that. |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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May 22, 2015 - 12:06 |
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I have been toying with going Undead / Necro next on FUMBBL simply because I have fallen in love with the Willy Miniatures team where you get both and I just HAVE to buy them (well my wife says I must paint my existing stuff first but then...)
Keen to hear what you make of the Necro. For me the Undead and Necro seems seem ultra similar on paper, do they play all that differently from each other? |
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