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Malal



Joined: Jun 20, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 12:26 Reply with quote Back to top

First of all hi to everyone since I just joined FUMBBL yesterday! I've started playing tabletop BB recently and got really hooked, so when I read about this place I couldn't but try it out.

Though I've tried out quite a bunch of teams, Chaos Dwarves are the one I've picked for a local league, and after some games I still have this question: who's better as a ball carrier, a bull centaur or a hobgoblin?

For now I'm using a hobbo with some success (I won the first match), but it's true that if someone bursts into your cage, he's so easy to knock down, and the bull centaur is also faster in case you manage to open the opponent's defense. AG2 it's what's setting me back the most, I guess if I rolled +AG he would instantly become the ball carrier?
Topper



Joined: Aug 03, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 13:34 Reply with quote Back to top

I personally use bulls as carriers, flanked by 2 Hobgoblins. Unless the pickup is extremely critical.
First, the Bulls are your key players - and skilling them up with TDs mean them getting better much faster. When they get Block, Breaktackle they're excellent defensively and offensively.
However using a Hobgoblin frees a bullcentaur in your offence, making your line stronger, so its also a valid option.
Chivite



Joined: Sep 04, 2017

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 13:41 Reply with quote Back to top

There is arguments for both options.

Bulls are amazing pieces, and if one is carrying the ball then it is not engaging the opponent, plus that makes his first few skills very dedicated, block, surehands, then break tackle, vs block, break tackle. Bulls do Need break tackle, spetially while carrying the ball, as if someone goes and bases him then you are forced to put resources into geting him free or risking a 4+ dodge, not ideal.

If you carry with a hobgoblin he can start with sure hands, be on the bench in defence and you do not care too much what happens to him, ag3 will make him more reliable, spetially if it rains, and will free a bull to harass the opponent.

The main problem with carrying with a hobgobo is that you are giving spp to someone you dont really care for, unless you roll +ag, dodge,+ma... but you could argue that if he gets those skills due to spp carrying the ball, then a bull would have gotten those things)

Anyhow, I like carrying with the bull myself, but that is only for neverending leagues, I think on a finite league i might handle the ball with a hobgoblin
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

This is one of the biggest debates in BB and you're going to find people on both sides of the argument.

Bull Carrier Pros:
He's st4, he's m6 with sprint and surefeet.
If he rolls a double for blodge, he becomes very difficult to take down in a cage of guard.
St4 Break tackle allows him to score in situations other players might struggle in.

Cons:
Without a stat-up, that's a 75% pickup in normal weather.
If your bull is carrying, he's not in the scrum, you're effectively down a bull centaur when on offense - this isn't a problem vs some teams, but it is a massive problem when you are weaker in terms of ST or ST+guard (this does happen).
While he's potentially ma9... he isn't really, and the speed of the cage isn't limited by the carrier in this case, it's limited by the blockers.
If you carry with a bull, you're exposing another hobgoblin - and people will target them. This may result in you being down players or on an even keel, and CDorfs, like most bash teams, are far easier to run a drive with when they have the numbers advantage.


Hobgoblin Pros:
He's m6 ag3 naturally, the odds of the pickup are better.
Inside a full guard cage, the odds of him being knocked over are actually the same as the bull unless your opponent has an st5+ coming in.
Having the hobgoblin carrying means both bulls are free to roam the pitch, assisting or blitzing as necessary, or even acting as cage corners themselves (which may increase the speed of the cage if you take guard on your bulls).
Frees up a skill slot on the bull to take a different G/S skill.

Cons:
The hobber is m6, no sprint, no surefeet, and won't get the 2+ dodge of a BT bull without a stat so you need to be more careful advancing the cage.
The hobgoblin is more easily removed.
By having a hobber carrier, you both lose a dp, and gain a hob you need to protect.



Basically, there's no right or wrong, but personal preference plays a big part - there's plenty of coaches who would never even take +AG on a bull because they never intend to carry with him and would prefer the S skills.

Bull carrying tends to make it slightly easier to beat teams with an x3xx statline across the board, but reduces the ability of the team vs higher ST bash. Effectively making chorfs even more of a cas-reliant flat-track bully roster than they already are.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 13:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I used both as ball carriers, but I prefer to use a Bull Centaur, because he's faster, stronger, better, harder. Sure Hands is mandatory if you decide so.
If you want to use a Hobbo as ball carrier he must be special (with stats like +MA, +AG), otherwise you will find Bull Centaur, even with just regular rolls, a better ball carrier.
Malal



Joined: Jun 20, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 15:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I gave a hobbo sure hands (I could start with 5 skills) so right now what I'm trying to do is pick up the ball with him when I need it picked up quickly but use the BC if I don't care spending more than one turn with the ball on the ground and don't need him in offence.

I guess I'll keep it that way for a while until one becomes clearly better than the other through leveling up.
Antithesisoftime



Joined: Aug 20, 2014

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 16:40 Reply with quote Back to top

I personally prefer carrying with bulls because they often have better speed and mobility, and the pickup is typically a 50/50 (or better with sure hands)

ideally you get a bull with +Ag and a double for dodge, and then have zero reason to not carry with them. There is the added benefit that a +Ag/dodge bull has added mobility on defense to be in the places he needs to be as well, with more reliability.

If you do carry with a bull though, then I'd consider wrestle first on your non-booting hobos, and if one of those does start to develop significant skills, continue them with tackle and strip, and use your Bull carrier as a ball retrieval option on defense.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 18:37 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
This is one of the biggest debates in BB and you're going to find people on both sides of the argument.

Bull Carrier Pros:
He's st4, he's m6 with sprint and surefeet.
If he rolls a double for blodge, he becomes very difficult to take down in a cage of guard.
St4 Break tackle allows him to score in situations other players might struggle in.

Cons:
Without a stat-up, that's a 75% pickup in normal weather.
If your bull is carrying, he's not in the scrum, you're effectively down a bull centaur when on offense - this isn't a problem vs some teams, but it is a massive problem when you are weaker in terms of ST or ST+guard (this does happen).
While he's potentially ma9... he isn't really, and the speed of the cage isn't limited by the carrier in this case, it's limited by the blockers.
If you carry with a bull, you're exposing another hobgoblin - and people will target them. This may result in you being down players or on an even keel, and CDorfs, like most bash teams, are far easier to run a drive with when they have the numbers advantage.


Hobgoblin Pros:
He's m6 ag3 naturally, the odds of the pickup are better.
Inside a full guard cage, the odds of him being knocked over are actually the same as the bull unless your opponent has an st5+ coming in.
Having the hobgoblin carrying means both bulls are free to roam the pitch, assisting or blitzing as necessary, or even acting as cage corners themselves (which may increase the speed of the cage if you take guard on your bulls).
Frees up a skill slot on the bull to take a different G/S skill.

Cons:
The hobber is m6, no sprint, no surefeet, and won't get the 2+ dodge of a BT bull without a stat so you need to be more careful advancing the cage.
The hobgoblin is more easily removed.
By having a hobber carrier, you both lose a dp, and gain a hob you need to protect.



Basically, there's no right or wrong, but personal preference plays a big part - there's plenty of coaches who would never even take +AG on a bull because they never intend to carry with him and would prefer the S skills.

Bull carrying tends to make it slightly easier to beat teams with an x3xx statline across the board, but reduces the ability of the team vs higher ST bash. Effectively making chorfs even more of a cas-reliant flat-track bully roster than they already are.


What a good writeup. I'll say that in facing them cdorks, I generally prefer to see a hobgob BC over a Bull unless the Bulls are really built for anti elf purposes. Imagining a Block, Tackle, Diving Tackle Stand Firm or something. I'd prefer a Bull BC to better Bull blitzers is what I'm driving at.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 19:29
FUMBBL Staff
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AD has this covered.

I dont choose one of the other, i let the game and the development choose for me.

The game: Can i risk a 50% pick up and not waste a reroll if it fails? will i need the possible MA9 or Break tackle to score? do i need the st4 elsewhere? is it raining?

+Stats: +AG means a BC, Bull or hobogb. Doubles can also mean a Bull becomes a carrier, Blodge/BT str4 is a hell of a BC, even without sure hands.

Also remember you probably want one Bull that can sweep up the ball on defence, so maybe the right answer in League is to develop one Bull to carry and one Hobgob and make it a situational choice. One Bull needs to be a dominant hitter though, even if you go for the Minotard.

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juck101



Joined: Nov 16, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 23:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally I want my muscle player; potentially one of the best blitzers in the game to be blitzing and doing the hard work for me. So I dont like to skill a bull as a handler. WD are perfect already so I will argue a BC with freak stats and basic skills can outclass them an high TV.

Hobos are really poor. For my style try and level an +ag hobo or +ma, then this guy is worth keeping. Until that happens keep getting a skill 1 as block and firing after that. A half decent stat then with sh block is an ok runner.

I think Cd as a race have the worse ball handling skills with khemri. It aint a strong point

edit - when/if you are winning with ease, then handoff to score with a centaur at the end to help level them. They dont need to run the entire drive with the ball to get the end spps if you have a rr.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 00:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Even with a stat loss, I let this hobgoblin carry the ball:

https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=516416

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MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 00:32 Reply with quote Back to top

No love for a ball carrying minotaur?

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 03:11 Reply with quote Back to top

If you think your opponent has much chance of breaking your cage and getting a 1db or better on your Hob then I can see the merits of a solid Bull Centaur carrier. Or if a BC gets plus ag or move. But in general a sure hands Hob seems like a great way to keep your BC in the blocking action. 25% failure rate for a BC carrier pickup with sure hands is still quite high..

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ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 04:10 Reply with quote Back to top

We should have a debate on what is the better debate "who to carry with on a chorf team" vs "do you take a thrower as orcs"
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 08:33 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
What a good writeup.


Said by the GLN editor who's looking for articles, no less.

Follow-up question - why not have both kinds of ball carrier?

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