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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 15:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Hey, Christer!

Tell me this wouldn't be badass.

On the match report page, indicate CR change. I can think of several ways to do this. Here are three, in increasing orders of complexity. To an unfamiliar outsider like me, #1 seems almost trivial in simplicity (you did something similar with coach stats in seconds), while #3 might take a small committee of volunteer coaches an hour or two to hash out and then Christer would have to set up in however long it takes (probably a single-sitting thing, but I'm guessing).

1) Indicate CR change with CR on the match report, so the report would show starting CR, CR adjustment, and finishing rank, as in "(CR 167.25+0.71 Super Star)" or whatever, right next to coach name as it is now.

2) Make it so you can hover over a coach's indicated CR to bring up a box like team stats on the Gamefinder window. You could include all sorts of goodies: CR and record for overall, division, race, and even team if so desired, before/after/change, streak, etc.

3) Put another link along with dice stats to a CR stats page. This would allow a lot of different stuff, like CR differential, match suitability, head-to-head history, all sorts of nifty doo-dads. This project can mostly be delegated to a design team: I'd be willing to help brainstorm on this, but I haven't found a working medication yet, so I'm a little unsure about my capacity to take charge on this front.

What say you?

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What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 17:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Remove the CR completely.

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Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 18:18
FUMBBL Staff
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There is already a page for detailed CRs for people on the site. It's linked on the overview page (More->Rankings):

https://fumbbl.com/p/rankings?c=Christer

This is close to your #2 option.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 18:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, but it doesn't show match-to-match change, which was the impetus for this idea.

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What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 18:54 Reply with quote Back to top

The CR Rankings page doesn't have division rankings decay by the way.
A coach can reach top rankings with a race in a division, then never play it again in that division while he keeps playing in other divisions and he remains forever on the top.
To be accurate rankings systems have to encourage playing regularily in the same division to prevent a slow CR points loss over time.


Anyway, I'd like the 1) suggestion by JackassRampant to be implemented.

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Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 20:25
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MattDakka wrote:
To be accurate rankings systems have to encourage playing regularily in the same division to prevent a slow CR points loss over time.


What's your source for this statement?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 20:47 Reply with quote Back to top

The source is the logic: a coach can reach number 1 rankings, then if he doesn't play anymore he tends to get rusty (and not better) with that race, it's normal.
The CR rankings must be frequent and updated often to keep track of possible coach's skill decreases.
Also, a coach could reach number 1 under a ruleset, but he could be not so good with a new ruleset.
When I check the rankings there are some coaches I never see playing in the Box and are still considered in that ladder.

Here's an example of what I'm trying to explain:

Spartako is rank 1 with Chaos Dwarfs in the Box, and the last time he played that race was in March 2017.
We are about in 2019 and he's still rank 1, but he never played the race in almost 2 years.
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches&order=&d=10&r=43

Last game played with Chaos Dwarfs in Box:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3887346

I'm not saying he's a bad coach, my point is that the rankings can date back to years ago, making them less accurate than rankings checking every week or month.
With rankings decay a coach has to keep on playing in that division or his CR there will drop.

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Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 27, 2018 - 21:09; edited 1 time in total
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 21:08
FUMBBL Staff
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And on the other side of the coin, if rankings decayed, someone coming back from an arbitrary long hiatus would be vastly underrated (or overrated if they were lower than average when they took the break). Meaning they'd affect other people's rankings to a much greater degree than if their rankings were still at the place they were when they left off.

I'm not saying the CR system is perfect, but adding a decay is something I have actively chosen to not to because I feel it'd make it worse.

If anything, I would change from an ELO base to a Glicko base, which effectively adds an "uncertainty" score to the ranking which would allow returning coaches to adjust to their current rating faster than right now. On the balance, though, this would have a minimal effect.

Another option would be to simply hide people who have been away for X amount of time (which is what the CR system does internally while adjusting ranking brackets anyway).
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 21:13 Reply with quote Back to top

I understand, but if you think that rankings decay is not good then hiding coaches no more active in one division (after a week or month, for example) would be an improvement.
Currently a coach is considered active if he plays on the site, no matter the division, but if a coach reaches rank 1 in a certain division he can stop playing there, and as long as he plays on FUMMBL (for example in League unranked division) his rank in that division won't change.
Also, a solution to fix the hiatus issue could be a calibration period of time (for example 10 games in a ranked division counting from the return on the site) to re-calculate the new CR.

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fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 21:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
And on the other side of the coin, if rankings decayed, someone coming back from an arbitrary long hiatus would be vastly underrated (or overrated if they were lower than average when they took the break). Meaning they'd affect other people's rankings to a much greater degree than if their rankings were still at the place they were when they left off.

My impression is that it is (or used to be?) fairly common for coaches to simply create new user IDs rather than to return using their old ID. The number of Box coaches with obscenely good records from Game 1, who play like veterans of the site, are my only evidence. It's even possible there's a meta-game going on where coaches try to get as many user IDs in the upper tiers of CR as they can... (Admittedly I haven't seen this in awhile, but I'm not playing as much either.) In the presence of this kind of outlier, which I know you try to detect but in the end are powerless to prevent (people move, get new computers, abandon email addresses, etc.), I wonder if the noise cancels out the signal.

Obviously you've thought this through to a far greater extent than I (or any of us) have, but from a pure marketing perspective, wouldn't CR decay also simply encourage people to play more regularly?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 21:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Also, CR decay doesn't have to be dramatically high.
It could be 0.02 every week/2 weeks, or another small amount, I'm not suggesting to make coaches lose 1 CR per day.
The decay could be capped (for example if a coach doesn't play anymore he loses over time 0.02 CR points to a max of 2 CR points or another amount) to prevent too much loss in case of forced hiatus due to issues.

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Dec 27, 2018 - 23:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Who would your proposal favour Matt? I’m only pulling your leg, but my serious point is that I think we should increase our scepticism for things which are positive for us to overcome our other biases.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 28, 2018 - 00:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad wrote:
Who would your proposal favour Matt? I’m only pulling your leg, but my serious point is that I think we should increase our scepticism for things which are positive for us to overcome our other biases.


If it hasn't happened in the last 5 years, today likely won't be the one of epiphany Wink
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 28, 2018 - 00:33
FUMBBL Staff
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To take this back to the original topic, having the results page display a CR delta isn't very difficult. The only real problem is that there are 4 different CRs that are updated per coach and match (Overall, Divisional overall, Overall racial and Divisional racial). It'd be somewhat messy to show all of those..
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 28, 2018 - 00:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
To take this back to the original topic, having the results page display a CR delta isn't very difficult. The only real problem is that there are 4 different CRs that are updated per coach and match (Overall, Divisional overall, Overall racial and Divisional racial). It'd be somewhat messy to show all of those..


It's almost like we need a 'stat junkie' console or something Wink
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