mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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 Posted:
Aug 03, 2020 - 05:58 |
 
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| King_Ghidra wrote: | | ClayInfinity wrote: | [...]
If a Human Thrower is throwing on a 2+ and a Norse Thrower the same... the game changes dramatically to a closer to NFL style Quarterback style game.
[..] |
I do think this is one of the most interesting possibilities for how this edition might meaningfully change the way the game is played (as opposed to many other things revealed today which maybe just change the meta).
My first reaction when people said 'passing is back/will be more popular' was 'why?' This game is still 16 turns and the most important skill is not scoring TD's, or even defending them, but game management, i.e. when you score, or when you force your opponent to do so. If it's easier and safer to manage the game with some kind of rolling cage or screens and make my 8 turn score that will be the most popular path to victory.
But thinking about your post, perhaps it will become the case that instead of grinding down the field, the most effective way to manage the game and score will be to play a little deeper, at midfield, or in your own half and then lob a pass. That would make a very different game, especially if we imagine how that would change defensive approaches or perhaps stretch the field.
The thing that makes me doubt this is that it seems movement values have stayed the same and there are no new protection skills or ways to penetrate column defences, so you still can't run catchers from deep in one turn, keep them alive just hanging round your opponents half, or group up and try and burst through a defence that sits back. Certainly it might well make the two-turn scores a lot more likely or viable for many teams with Throwers, and probably makes them less likely for those that don't, but otherwise I'm sceptical that anything will change the 8-turn game-managing cage-based grind. |
My hunch is that if you already play tight as to avoid rolling dice, you're not suddenly going to start going out of your way just because the specific risk of passing is lessened from status quo. It's still at least 2 rolls you might not have to make with alternative positioning and planning. As a panic button on offense, it might be pretty righteous, especially if exposed to marking because of a quad skulls turnover.
If you play looser and actually like passing for reasons, like collecting scoring risk into 2x 2+ while spreading the field and goofing around opportunistic Outs and Surfs, the Thrower, especially on AG3 just makes what you less prone fail and has a higher limit of what can be done.
In my mind though, what I'm really interested in is the utility on defense if you can get ball pops and recovery. My hunch is that in such a scenario, a Thrower with passing ability increases the chances of escaping with the ball on someone on your team as the recipient of pass. I've played enough to have too many instances where everything went right on a defensive ballpop turn bar the pickup or clearing, especially with AG3 throwers such as Rats and Humans. I Actually had a game like that last night where if the new ruleset was in play, I would have passed a 3+ instead of a 5+ with my rat thrower. I missed the pass on a 4+. I still recovered on a 3+ GR pickup the next turn but there was a chance that I could have been off the ball again with the dorfs having it back in their possession.
Hell, the transition game on ball pop and clearing might be exactly where the Thrower finds an integral role on a defensive lineup, especially if they have the same movement as their lino equivalent. There's just a lot of different accounting with some of these new skills that would be harder to sort out with weird geometry and an urgency to convert the score on defense.
When the new rules come, I'm going to go HAM with passing, provide I get the opportunity to play when put into place on Fumbbl. |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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Aug 03, 2020 - 07:14 |
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Yes, the Thrower as the "scrambler" ball getter and distributor rather than a deep passer will be better dice stats. With Sure Hands and in some of the races with mutations like Big Hand, this is already the case. But it will be an improvement on the odds of success. |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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Aug 03, 2020 - 07:22 |
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| Verminardo wrote: | | Yeah well at some point the community might just decide to ditch GW |
Yeah, nah...
Sidenote: is it too much to hope that they deal with game mechanics removing the stalling game and one turners? probably |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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Aug 03, 2020 - 08:13 |
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Might be removing natural 1-turners.
Interesting to me is you can't just turn a +AG goat, ghoul, or blitzer into a solid thrower, because they start on 4+ or 5+ quick passes. Still a solid receiver, pickup, or runner, but you're gunna want a thrower to actually throw it, the rest will be ... Rushing for handoffs I guess.
Huzzah for the end of passing Chaos/Nurgs. Honestly, that is always the most annoying thing when you get a bash team way out of position and they just take some +AG lino and long pass on a 4+. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Aug 03, 2020 - 08:21 |
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Guess someone forgot to inform GW that "simplicity is the cornerstone of good game design". LOL
This has the potential to be quite a mess. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Aug 03, 2020 - 08:22 |
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| tussock wrote: |
Huzzah for the end of passing Chaos/Nurgs. Honestly, that is always the most annoying thing when you get a bash team way out of position and they just take some +AG lino and long pass on a 4+. |
Sounds like you're way out of position on this one, bud. 
And now, I have my next topic. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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| Balle2000 wrote: | | Sidenote: is it too much to hope that they deal with game mechanics removing the stalling game and one turners? probably |
There are rules for a change where the crowd throws a rock if someone can score without rolling any dice but chooses not to. It’s in German though, and quite fuzzy, so not totally sure on the rule. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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| Grod wrote: | It sounds a bit complicated right? Couldn't they just have given AG 3 throwers strong arm or accurate as a standard starting skill (perhaps raising cost by 10k)?
Or should I reserver judgement until the ruleset is offically out? |
| fidius wrote: | Guess someone forgot to inform GW that "simplicity is the cornerstone of good game design". LOL
This has the potential to be quite a mess. |
From what I’ve seen, I don’t see these rules as being much more complicated. I think they’ve tried to simplify things for new players. From a new player perspective, changing the base Ag3 stat to a 3+ is very positive and much easier to understand. Av is a similar system, it’s just easier when you’re learning the game if what you need to roll is printed on the roster.
Also, as expected, there is and will be a number of ‘old skool’ bb players immediately writing off any changes as terrible and calling the game dead. I’m hoping that as a community we can try and get behind a new edition, embrace change, give the GW team a chance. I know this is a big ask  |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 03, 2020 - 08:46 |
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Hard to say for sure because we haven't seen all the rules but these look like great changes on the whole. Hopefully this imperial team doesn't replace humans and is a new roster.
Interesting that loner is variable. This will no doubt have implications for the new owa roster.
They've finally addressed the travesty that was the kick off table and the solutions are elegant upon first read.
Looks pretty solid. But again I will not make my mind up until I have the full document in my hand. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 03, 2020 - 08:54 |
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Those thunder valley greenskins.... are they an orc team or big uns? Troll 6 big orcs rest goblins....
The designers been pilfering secret league again? |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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Some interesting points I haven’t seen mentioned on here yet:
- FAME seems to be gone, back to the old system of Fan Factor being useful
- There seems to be a lot in the main book, league rules etc, which suggests DZ may be rolled into the main box
- It says on the back of the book that all ‘currently available’ teams will have a roster in the book |
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Amok2714
Joined: Jan 10, 2019
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Aug 03, 2020 - 09:14 |
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What struck me most was that the now AG4 players are becoming 2+. Does this mean that you cannot gain AG anymore, a 1+ doesn't feel right.
This has big consequences in leagues where all teams can get better in what they are good at accept for the AG teams. |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 03, 2020 - 09:27 |
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| Amok2714 wrote: | What struck me most was that the now AG4 players are becoming 2+. Does this mean that you cannot gain AG anymore, a 1+ doesn't feel right.
This has big consequences in leagues where all teams can get better in what they are good at accept for the AG teams. |
This struck me as well... means that more skill slots will be spent on skills that give more bonuses rather than an exspensive +AG. Catch, Diving Catch and Pass Block will be more prevalent I presume? |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Aug 03, 2020 - 09:35 |
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We haven't seen any Elven rosters yet but if they follow the Gutter Runner model for passing this is a significant Elf nerf. The ability to pass with any player in case of need is one of the signature strengths of Elves... will also be interesting to see what they do with Vampires... |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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| Verminardo wrote: | | We haven't seen any Elven rosters yet but if they follow the Gutter Runner model for passing this is a significant Elf nerf. The ability to pass with any player in case of need is one of the signature strengths of Elves... will also be interesting to see what they do with Vampires... |
Indeed. And it seems like Undead can hardly pass at all even if they wanted to. |
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