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Poll
Should FUMBBL adopt 2 minute turns as default?
Yes
13%
 13%  [ 20 ]
No
73%
 73%  [ 111 ]
Only in certain leagues
13%
 13%  [ 20 ]
Total Votes : 151


MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2020 - 21:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, you are entitled to think what you want.
There are people who are adults not just because they have kids, but because they are able to manage their own time and life and don't disturb other people's lives by stealing their time with slow play or interruptions.
By the way, you didn't play slow, so, nothing to complain about your speed, we had fun and a nice and friendly chat.
Just generally speaking.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2020 - 22:00 Reply with quote Back to top

How many kids do you Matt?

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2020 - 22:12 Reply with quote Back to top

0.
ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2020 - 22:12
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

Mingoose wrote:
I helped another kid with homework while pooping yesterday. This is what most adult lives look like.


glorious
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2020 - 22:22 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
0.


Do you look after any elderly or disabled relatives?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2020 - 22:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, not disabled, just old, but it's off-topic and I don't want to talk about my life, sorry.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2020 - 22:56 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Yes, not disabled, just old, but it's off-topic and I don't want to talk about my life, sorry.


It is not that off-topic. External pressures can affect whether a person prefers a fast, uninterrupted game that they can squeeze into their window of opportunity or a more laid back game where minor interruptions can be dealt with.

I've had coaches take 40-50 minute breaks so that they could collect their daughter from taekwondo or their brother from the station.

In the league division this stuff can work nicely as you arrange the game beforehand. In the Box it has to be a bit stricter.
But the site rules say that you should allow 90 minutes. I doubt that many games go over 90 without overtime.

But I suppose, if you are trying to cram two games into a tight window, a long first game can mean that the second game cannot be started.

Don't forget that the Box needs a certain critical mass. Without some of the more laid back coaches, it won't work.

Without some of the slow coaches and multitaskers to make up the numbers, there'll be times when there is no draw and you have no game at all.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2020 - 23:19 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
External pressures can affect whether a person prefers a fast, uninterrupted game that they can squeeze into their window of opportunity

Exactly this. For that reason (limited time window) I hated being scheduled in the Box vs a no-show coach, because I had only a certain time window to play that day.
When I activate, I'm sure I will not be interrupted for the time of a game (if not sure, I don't activate at all), but if a coach takes too much time or just doesn't show up I can't play the game inside the time window.
Yes I can try to play very fast myself to make up for the slow gameplay of my opponent, but that increases the chance of misclicks/misplays.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2020 - 23:29 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
(if not sure, I don't activate at all)


And this is the rub. Most people can never be "sure" so you would have a very lonely Box all to yourself.

You are declaring an overly punitive concept. "Don't finish a turn in 4? Get screwed." You fail to account for players that play at a nice pace and then need a single 7 minute turn to swat their kids.

You are also waffling between two concepts, the power gaming win at all costs, if I don't TO you I will regret possibly losing, vs the I am a busy man and I don't have all day to play. It seems rather convenient which side of your argument comes out depending on the posts you are responding to.

I LIKE the time limit, because if someone is truly AFK for 10 minutes without saying something, I want an option to continue playing the game without resorting to an admin. But without the time limit, in those exceedingly rare circumstances, the admins do an exceptional job on Discord and I can get a resolution quickly.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 22, 2020 - 23:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Mingoose wrote:

And this is the rub. Most people can never be "sure" so you would have a very lonely Box all to yourself.

Or they would take the risk, and if something happens, they deal with it and suffer the time out, they will not be executed by an Imperial Guard Commissar, they will just lose a game (no biggie for a guy with family, kids etc, he will probably not care about a loss as a nasty power gamer would do).
On BB2 there is automatic time out as far as I know, but it's not a lonely game. It has more users than FUMBBL. Sure, you will say, the graphics and more advertisement made it popular (not better than FUMMBL), but my point is that automatic time out would not necessarily make a MM division lonely.
We can't know for sure.


Mingoose wrote:

You are also waffling between two concepts, the power gaming win at all costs, if I don't TO you I will regret possibly losing, vs the I am a busy man and I don't have all day to play. It seems rather convenient which side of your argument comes out depending on the posts you are responding to.

Being busy is not mutually exclusive with power gaming and wanting to time out automatically. Since I'm busy AND I'm competitive as well I don't want time wasting, 2 reasons. It's very simple and not logically contradictory. I'm good at managing my time, but I can't manage my time AND my opponent's time.
Beomer



Joined: Mar 19, 2018

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2020 - 00:24 Reply with quote Back to top

I personally do not like 2 minute-turns. It is ok for most turns - in most games... but there are situations where you need extra-time to wrap your head around a situation presented to you - for instance by a play the opponent made or the way the ball bounced/scattered. Sometimes you have to think about where to position guard and which blitzing-angle is best to avoid his guards and still open the way trough... Or where you have to iterate through several chainpushes to get your catcher into TD-range in turn 16 to win or draw the game... Thinking if it is better odds to pass and catch in a tackle-zone or to blitz free, run into the end-zone and then do a hand-off and pass to get the ball to him. And there are many other cases where there is more stuff to consider than what normal people can process in 2 minutes. So they try their best and then hurry through the rest of the turn to somehow get things done misclicking or not taking enough time to think about a simple position becauses they used too much time thinking about the complex stuff that they lose the game because of that rather simple but important mistake. That is something that can make people lose the joy in the game.

I honestly do not think that BloodBowl "should be played that way" - one of the big enjoyments is thinking thorougly about a given situation and finding a way to solve it. It is the question if the only players that are allowed to have fun in this game are the ones that have a knack for finding the ideal solution in the first instant - or if those guys thinking from different angles are accepted as well.

I do not say that it has to be 4 minute turns - but in BB2 I often find 2-minute-turns too short. 3 might really be a good way - especially given how timing-out is handeled on FUMBBL.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2020 - 02:25 Reply with quote Back to top

“Me, me, me”
“I, I, I”

MattDakka wrote:
Mingoose wrote:

And this is the rub. Most people can never be "sure" so you would have a very lonely Box all to yourself.

Or they would take the risk, and if something happens, they deal with it and suffer the time out, they will not be executed by an Imperial Guard Commissar.


You wouldnt be executed either, if you were forced to wait ten minutes more or to finish the game at a later time (in extremely rare occurrences).
The fact is, you give other people the option of taking the risk and eventually suck it up, or not play. As if it was a kind, reasonable and fair choice.
But at the same time you totally refuse the idea of you taking the risk of the rare and mild inconvenience of having a slower game or (horror!!!) giving your opponent an unfair advantage of a couple dozen seconds.

How nice.

...see? Hyperboles cut both ways.

The thing is, this is your creed:
MattDakka wrote:
Since you asked: the smile is not required to accept the time out, you are free to be upset.
The important thing is that you don't waste opponent's time, how you take the time out is not important.

The important thing is that the opponent doesn't WASTE YOUR TIME. It's not a game, it's not a social experience, it's not about having fun together. It's not a mix of those either. It's about not wasting your time. You are here to play some goddamn bloodbowl and if anyone dares to be a person on top of being your opponent, that's their goddamn problem. "Leave your problems out of the door. Play competitive bloodbowl or gtfo".

You know what? Fumbbl wouldn't exist with that mindset. The site and platform you enjoy, the competitive divisions you enjoy, and the automated system that lets you do your thing in a quick, efficient way, wouldn't exist with that mindset.
Being elitist, or not being inclusive, or locking too many people out of the competitive division is perhaps the shortest route to the death of Fumbbl. And I'm sure Christer knows it.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2020 - 12:37 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:

You wouldnt be executed either, if you were forced to wait ten minutes more or to finish the game at a later time (in extremely rare occurrences).

The difference is that opponent taking more time than necessary has an advantage over people playing inside the time limit (he can think longer, reduces the risk of misclicks etc.).
Of course I could sometimes wait, but I don't want to wait, because it gives an advantage to the opponent and I'm allowed by the rules (current rules) to time out him. Also, there are some guys who, if not timed out, keep moving half of their players, it's not just waiting for 5 seconds after 4 minutes for an extra dodge, some guys keep on playing if you don't time out them.

JanMattys wrote:

The fact is, you give other people the option of taking the risk and eventually suck it up,
as per time out rules, so legitimate risk.

JanMattys wrote:

or not play.

They can play, but they have to expect that opponent times out them. It is in the rules, at least for now.


JanMattys wrote:

But at the same time you totally refuse the idea of you taking the risk of the rare and mild inconvenience of having a slower game or (horror!!!) giving your opponent an unfair advantage of a couple dozen seconds.

I can take the risk but I don't want to take the risk, and rules back up this will of mine, while opponent playing slow and risking to be timed out just deals with a rule which allows time out (his slowness is not allowed by rules).
There is a big difference.

If in the future there will be no time out, fine, but I'm curious to see what will happen when a guy suddenly stops playing.
The game will be won after 3 days? The division could not have a smooth running.

And about the social experience: when time out is optional, and you choose to enforce it, people tend to react bad, and this can ruin the social experience you talk about.
Automatic time out would not put the burden on the coach, but on the client. This is how a modern game would work. People complain because they are not used to automatic time out, once used to it, they would adapt and play faster, I'm sure.
Dominik



Joined: Oct 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2020 - 13:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Matt, you are not allowed to time out an opponent who all of a sudden stopped moving his players and did not type anything in chat. You would violate the rules of FUMBBL.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 23, 2020 - 13:35 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

And about the social experience: when time out is optional, and you choose to enforce it, people tend to react bad, and this can ruin the social experience you talk about.
Automatic time out would not put the burden on the coach, but on the client. This is how a modern game would work. People complain because they are not used to automatic time out, once used to it, they would adapt and play faster, I'm sure.


I can understand that. And you know what? As far as *I* am concerned, I tend to agree.
But on the other hand, there's also the risk of the not-so-hardcore guys, who try to squeeze a bb game here and there in their free time and sometimes have life get in the way, losing interest after losing one too many games due to automatic timeouts.
They could perceive the client as unforgiving and incompatible with their need for a bit of reasonable flexibility, and leave for good. And my gut (just my gut) tells me such guys make up for quite a bit of the Fumbbl player base.

You never know which is going to happen. Your scenario is possible, but not the only logical outcome.

Just for anecdotal purposes: I have five regular RL friends playing on Fumbbl, and four of them would probably stop playing if they knew of an auto-timeout feature because they pretty much play with kids around, wives asking for a bit of their time, or other rl stuff. They are NOT 4+ mins players, mind you. All are RL veteran coaches and they stay well under the thresold 99% of the time. But they would be totally put off by the thought of having no safety net, simply because they can't afford 90 mins of 100% foolproof no-distractions time in their life.

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Last edited by JanMattys on Aug 23, 2020 - 13:57; edited 1 time in total
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