12 coaches online • Server time: 07:11
* * * Did you know? 263 games were played yesterday.
Recent Forum Topics  Conceding v Goblins/... | War Drums? | Advice tabletop tour... |
2013-07-17 14:56:17
18 votes, rating 5.3
18 votes, rating 5.3
Khemries blog: Kick first vs. Recieve first
Every coach has opinion, which one is better. Let me share mine.
In most situations, I prefer to kick first (I will talk about exceptions at the end). Reasons:
1) Khemries are not afraid of snowballing opponent.
2) Khemries snowball better in defense than in offence.
3) Khemries are very bad at recovering from bad luck in offence.
4) In some situations, kick first is MUST.
Khemries are not afraid of snowballing opponent
Receive first has one clear advantage - you get initiative, and first 4 blocks. With some lucky armor/cas rolls, you remove one or few opponent players before they even have a chance to act, get numerical advantage, and snowball from there. There is a joke, that when 2 high TV Chaos teams play, the one that wins coin toss, wins a game. And it has some truth in it. But Khemries are not Chaos.
IMHO Khemries is hardest team to snowball against:
1) Khemries always have a bench. 13-14 players is standart.
2) All players have regen.
3) Line folders (skelies) have Thick Skull + regen. That makes them best linefolder vs. CLAWPOMB army.
4) If everything went bad, you still have 2 KO rolls.
Khemries snowball better in defense than in offence
IMHO Khemries can snowball on offence, but only in some limited situations. Main problems with snowballing on offence are:
1) Picking the ball with Khemries is hard. And while ball is not in Thro-Ra hands, Khemries can't concentrate on bashing/fouling. You must leave some players in back field, you cannot foul before pick-up, blitzing target deep in opponent side is often bad idea (especially blitz/PO, learned it hard way).
2) When Thro-Ra has ball, you must protect him at all cost. Literally. When I play elves, sometimes I give opponent chance to to do 4+ dodge+ 2x GFI for 1D block on my ball carrier. It eats opponent rerolls, and even if he succeeds, I will just pick up the ball and run away next turn. With Khemries, story is different. Losing the ball often mean no scoring that half. So, you protect the ball. Often it means you don't take some blocks, and/or give opponent extra blocks.
On defense, Khemries doesn't have these limitations, and can bash/foul "from the heart".
Also, kick first gives "free" T8 foul. Rule is simple:
If opponent scored, and you have 12+ players, foul.
Khemries are very bad at recovering from bad luck in offence
Bad luck really hurts Khemries. Classical examples:
1) Kick-off events. Worst is Changing Weather into Pouring rain. Blitz! and Perfect Defense are super bad. Throw a Rock and Pitch Invasion are potentially dangerous.
2) No pick-up 2/3/4 turns in row. Happens surprisingly often for AG2 team.
3) Failure with RR on 2D block. Also happens surprisingly often, because TG's doesn't have easy access to block.
If some bad luck leads to defensive TD for opponent, it is pretty much impossible to recover and win a game.
On top of that, opponent will get control of game clock, and can choose to score or T7 or T8 (depending from KOs).
Nobody can avoid bad luck. But it is much easier to recover from bad luck in 2nd half, when opponent has fewer players.
When kick first is MUST
At least in these 2 situations kick first is must:
1) Opponent team has high chance for OTT. Why the hell should Khemries receive vs. them? If they want to try OTT, first they should survive till T16.
2) Opponent has wizard. Again, if Khemries receive, lucky wizard often means defensive TD for opponent, and Khemries are unlikely to recover from that. If kick first, opponent may be forced to waste wizard if he wants to score, or, with some luck, in 2nd half opponent wont have enough players to take advantage of wizard.
Exceptions
Sometimes receive first is great, too. Pretty much always when you have good chance to snowball.
1) Teams, against which Khemries has "natural" advantage. Norse, Humans, unskilled Chaos/Nurgles teams comes to mind.
2) 11 players apo teams. Receiving vs 11 players regen teams are also not bad.
In most situations, I prefer to kick first (I will talk about exceptions at the end). Reasons:
1) Khemries are not afraid of snowballing opponent.
2) Khemries snowball better in defense than in offence.
3) Khemries are very bad at recovering from bad luck in offence.
4) In some situations, kick first is MUST.
Khemries are not afraid of snowballing opponent
Receive first has one clear advantage - you get initiative, and first 4 blocks. With some lucky armor/cas rolls, you remove one or few opponent players before they even have a chance to act, get numerical advantage, and snowball from there. There is a joke, that when 2 high TV Chaos teams play, the one that wins coin toss, wins a game. And it has some truth in it. But Khemries are not Chaos.
IMHO Khemries is hardest team to snowball against:
1) Khemries always have a bench. 13-14 players is standart.
2) All players have regen.
3) Line folders (skelies) have Thick Skull + regen. That makes them best linefolder vs. CLAWPOMB army.
4) If everything went bad, you still have 2 KO rolls.
Khemries snowball better in defense than in offence
IMHO Khemries can snowball on offence, but only in some limited situations. Main problems with snowballing on offence are:
1) Picking the ball with Khemries is hard. And while ball is not in Thro-Ra hands, Khemries can't concentrate on bashing/fouling. You must leave some players in back field, you cannot foul before pick-up, blitzing target deep in opponent side is often bad idea (especially blitz/PO, learned it hard way).
2) When Thro-Ra has ball, you must protect him at all cost. Literally. When I play elves, sometimes I give opponent chance to to do 4+ dodge+ 2x GFI for 1D block on my ball carrier. It eats opponent rerolls, and even if he succeeds, I will just pick up the ball and run away next turn. With Khemries, story is different. Losing the ball often mean no scoring that half. So, you protect the ball. Often it means you don't take some blocks, and/or give opponent extra blocks.
On defense, Khemries doesn't have these limitations, and can bash/foul "from the heart".
Also, kick first gives "free" T8 foul. Rule is simple:
If opponent scored, and you have 12+ players, foul.
Khemries are very bad at recovering from bad luck in offence
Bad luck really hurts Khemries. Classical examples:
1) Kick-off events. Worst is Changing Weather into Pouring rain. Blitz! and Perfect Defense are super bad. Throw a Rock and Pitch Invasion are potentially dangerous.
2) No pick-up 2/3/4 turns in row. Happens surprisingly often for AG2 team.
3) Failure with RR on 2D block. Also happens surprisingly often, because TG's doesn't have easy access to block.
If some bad luck leads to defensive TD for opponent, it is pretty much impossible to recover and win a game.
On top of that, opponent will get control of game clock, and can choose to score or T7 or T8 (depending from KOs).
Nobody can avoid bad luck. But it is much easier to recover from bad luck in 2nd half, when opponent has fewer players.
When kick first is MUST
At least in these 2 situations kick first is must:
1) Opponent team has high chance for OTT. Why the hell should Khemries receive vs. them? If they want to try OTT, first they should survive till T16.
2) Opponent has wizard. Again, if Khemries receive, lucky wizard often means defensive TD for opponent, and Khemries are unlikely to recover from that. If kick first, opponent may be forced to waste wizard if he wants to score, or, with some luck, in 2nd half opponent wont have enough players to take advantage of wizard.
Exceptions
Sometimes receive first is great, too. Pretty much always when you have good chance to snowball.
1) Teams, against which Khemries has "natural" advantage. Norse, Humans, unskilled Chaos/Nurgles teams comes to mind.
2) 11 players apo teams. Receiving vs 11 players regen teams are also not bad.
Comments
Posted by Hitonagashi on 2013-07-17 15:07:11
Good blog.
This tactic holds for more than Khemri too, quite a few teams could take advantage of it's logic.
This tactic holds for more than Khemri too, quite a few teams could take advantage of it's logic.
Posted by Roland on 2013-07-17 15:20:55
Add all these blogs to the khemri strategy page!
Posted by Cavetroll on 2013-07-17 17:58:58
Great blogs on Khemri. I'll be referring back to these next time I start a new Khemri team.
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-07-17 18:01:23
Interesting I have lost/drawn some games lately due to giving small openings on the ball because I wanted to keep up the pressure in the bash.
My thoughts against kicking first:
If I focus on bashing and fouling most teams will get an easy score and they can often delay that score for so long that a 1st half equalizer is a long shot. Then you have to score twice in 2nd half, and scoring before turn 15 often runs the risk of losing 2-1.
If I focus on stopping the touchdown I wont do as much damage so I might pretty much as well have the ball myself, also a cage is good for assisting fouls.
When the opponent gets the ball 2nd half I have a much better chance of stopping his score or forcing a very quick/risky touchdown to allow me 5+ turns for the 2-1 victory if his team is battered after the 1st half.
Basic 2-1 grind thoughts I guess but I feel they apply well to Khemri.
I do have an AG3 blodge carrier at the moment though so picking up is easier and opponents long shots get smaller.
I am certainly often 'settling for the draw' too. :)
My thoughts against kicking first:
If I focus on bashing and fouling most teams will get an easy score and they can often delay that score for so long that a 1st half equalizer is a long shot. Then you have to score twice in 2nd half, and scoring before turn 15 often runs the risk of losing 2-1.
If I focus on stopping the touchdown I wont do as much damage so I might pretty much as well have the ball myself, also a cage is good for assisting fouls.
When the opponent gets the ball 2nd half I have a much better chance of stopping his score or forcing a very quick/risky touchdown to allow me 5+ turns for the 2-1 victory if his team is battered after the 1st half.
Basic 2-1 grind thoughts I guess but I feel they apply well to Khemri.
I do have an AG3 blodge carrier at the moment though so picking up is easier and opponents long shots get smaller.
I am certainly often 'settling for the draw' too. :)
Posted by bigGuy on 2013-07-17 19:44:26
Quick reply: sure, some skills/stats changes team tactic.
From your example: with +AG Thro-Ra you don't need so many players in backfield.
I have +MA kick-off return Thro-Ra in one of my teams. That team is pretty good at scoring in 3-4 turns, so kick first and force opponents to score works good with them.
At one point, my team KNE had all TG's with block. I liked receive with that team, because offense was super strong.
How certain skills/stats affects team tactic - great topic for another blog post.
From your example: with +AG Thro-Ra you don't need so many players in backfield.
I have +MA kick-off return Thro-Ra in one of my teams. That team is pretty good at scoring in 3-4 turns, so kick first and force opponents to score works good with them.
At one point, my team KNE had all TG's with block. I liked receive with that team, because offense was super strong.
How certain skills/stats affects team tactic - great topic for another blog post.
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-07-17 20:57:36
Just wondered how many matches my Khemri only scored 1 touch down. Team: fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&showmatches=1&team_id=649117
Results:
3-0 , 1
2-0 , 4
2-1, 9
2-2, 1
1-0, 10
1-1, 12
0-1, 2
0-4, 1
So in 64% of my matches I score 1 goal or less. :D
Results:
3-0 , 1
2-0 , 4
2-1, 9
2-2, 1
1-0, 10
1-1, 12
0-1, 2
0-4, 1
So in 64% of my matches I score 1 goal or less. :D
Posted by cameronhawkins on 2013-07-17 21:34:59
This is a really great analysis! Nice job!
I think you missed one good point, though, which is that probably more than any other team, Khemri really need at least 5 turns to score, which means that you're risking very little by kicking first–– even in the worst case scenario, where an opponent successfully stalls until turn 8, it's not that much different than if they scored on turn 5, because you probably wouldn't have counter-scored either. But you'll still get the same juicy LOS blocks and foul on your own turn 8.
I would say this is part of their "Khemri are not afraid of a snowballing opponent" quality.
I think you missed one good point, though, which is that probably more than any other team, Khemri really need at least 5 turns to score, which means that you're risking very little by kicking first–– even in the worst case scenario, where an opponent successfully stalls until turn 8, it's not that much different than if they scored on turn 5, because you probably wouldn't have counter-scored either. But you'll still get the same juicy LOS blocks and foul on your own turn 8.
I would say this is part of their "Khemri are not afraid of a snowballing opponent" quality.
Posted by PainState on 2013-07-17 22:13:18
There is one flaw in this plan.
Khemri Kick...the other team 2T scores. Then they kick, get a defensive Turn Over and on T4 are up 2-0....rinse and repeat until the Khemri player says to hell with this and just forgets the ball and tries to kill...losses 6-0 but maimed and injured some of the other guys to feel good about the match.
But overall it is a good plan. With one flaw that can get exploited big time.
Khemri Kick...the other team 2T scores. Then they kick, get a defensive Turn Over and on T4 are up 2-0....rinse and repeat until the Khemri player says to hell with this and just forgets the ball and tries to kill...losses 6-0 but maimed and injured some of the other guys to feel good about the match.
But overall it is a good plan. With one flaw that can get exploited big time.
Posted by bigGuy on 2013-07-17 22:34:25
Yea, happends. Frak you 5AG leaping rats...
Posted by Roland on 2013-07-18 00:03:34
Do you have any good defence setups for khemri?
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-07-18 00:32:51
Lol PainState so you have a better plan which defends against 6-0 losses? :D
Posted by huff on 2013-07-18 01:48:36
1st off, I relish both reading and talking BB strategies so your blogs lately have been quite entertaining.
Anytime Khemries take the field they are in all likelihood going to be the slower and clumsier team on the pitch, so they will need to gain the man advantage to effectively play ball. This is the opposite of teams that are fast and agile, such as Skaven or Elves, who don't need the man advantage.
This all ties in to the idea of kicking first, since when defending you have an inherent man advantage to start because the offence has to dedicate 1 man to handling the ball and at least another 2 to protecting it, but most likely it's going to be 4 for a cage. So yes, kicking fist makes perfect sense as you need the pitch advantage for Khemri to play effectively. Unless of course you think the opponent is going to take off 3+ men's on the initial hits, which isn't something that can really be counted on.
Anytime Khemries take the field they are in all likelihood going to be the slower and clumsier team on the pitch, so they will need to gain the man advantage to effectively play ball. This is the opposite of teams that are fast and agile, such as Skaven or Elves, who don't need the man advantage.
This all ties in to the idea of kicking first, since when defending you have an inherent man advantage to start because the offence has to dedicate 1 man to handling the ball and at least another 2 to protecting it, but most likely it's going to be 4 for a cage. So yes, kicking fist makes perfect sense as you need the pitch advantage for Khemri to play effectively. Unless of course you think the opponent is going to take off 3+ men's on the initial hits, which isn't something that can really be counted on.
Posted by Beerox on 2013-07-18 04:04:48
I receive if I win the toss. If things go bad on offense, I'm either playing slann, being a "blitz" victim, or I did something really wrong.
Tip: Put 5 guys back. If you crowd the line and leave only 1 receiver back, you're asking for trouble.
Receive, score T8, and play for the win. If you surrender a 2nd half TD then oh well a draw.
If you kick, and they score in more than 2 turns, most often you're playing for the draw and you both know it. This kind of sucks. You can't score in 4 turns usually, and you can't score twice in a half. Unless of course you take foolish risks :)
Tip: Put 5 guys back. If you crowd the line and leave only 1 receiver back, you're asking for trouble.
Receive, score T8, and play for the win. If you surrender a 2nd half TD then oh well a draw.
If you kick, and they score in more than 2 turns, most often you're playing for the draw and you both know it. This kind of sucks. You can't score in 4 turns usually, and you can't score twice in a half. Unless of course you take foolish risks :)
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-07-18 04:06:05
What about this:
Vs hybrid and agile teams you choose to receive so you can pound them for 8 turns before having to force the quick score (or perhaps stop it). They are too weak to really threaten you cage.
Vs heavy bash you kick so you can focus on damage and the opponent will have to protect his ball keeping some of his guys out of the fight. You will probably have to score twice in 2nd half to win so at the start of 2nd half you look on the numbers and decide to go for quick scores or grind out the draw.
Vs hybrid and agile teams you choose to receive so you can pound them for 8 turns before having to force the quick score (or perhaps stop it). They are too weak to really threaten you cage.
Vs heavy bash you kick so you can focus on damage and the opponent will have to protect his ball keeping some of his guys out of the fight. You will probably have to score twice in 2nd half to win so at the start of 2nd half you look on the numbers and decide to go for quick scores or grind out the draw.
Posted by bigGuy on 2013-07-18 09:34:28
Overhamsteren, elves are worst opponent for Khemries. And there is no pounding. If elves don't fail dodge early in turn, you get total 10-15 blocks in 8 offense turns. Your best best elves will do something risky and fail (like 4+ dodge for 1D block). The problem is, if they succeed, game lost.
Actually, I played not enough games vs elves in the box, and still did not figured best tactic vs them.
Actually, I played not enough games vs elves in the box, and still did not figured best tactic vs them.
Posted by vaclav on 2013-07-18 16:19:19
than take div. tackle on double like me:) Worst thing for khemri is clopomb and not to recive first. I play a lot high tv khemri and if u pick the ball which is 75%, ussualy there is no problems. But if chaos and nurgle start to bash your tg-s there is no coming back. If u kick u will put skellys on the los, so good chances u will be short of players at the start. In verry few ocasions i kicked first(like pouring rain and not bashing team aginst to play).
Posted by Roland on 2013-07-19 23:20:04
wait...
"1) Opponent team has high chance for OTT. Why the hell should Khemries receive vs. them? If they want to try OTT, first they should survive till T16."
If khemries start, opponent will have the last turn of the first half, right? T8, that is? isn't it better to kick then?
"1) Opponent team has high chance for OTT. Why the hell should Khemries receive vs. them? If they want to try OTT, first they should survive till T16."
If khemries start, opponent will have the last turn of the first half, right? T8, that is? isn't it better to kick then?