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2013-07-24 11:04:41
11 votes, rating 4.9
11 votes, rating 4.9
Khemries blog: Skeleton skills & Defensive lineup
This time I want discuss Skeleton roles and skill choices. We must know how many skeletons we have on the field, before assigning roles to them. I will concentrate on defensive lineup (because in offense lineups are much more flexible).
Defensive lineup
Lets count.
4 TG is must.
2 B-Ra is must.
We have 5 free positions for skeletons and T-Ras. Options:
a) 2 T-Ra + 3 Skellies.
b) 1 T-Ra + 4 Skellies.
c) 5 Skellies
a) Is bad idea in general (may be ok with some special skills/stats combination on T-Ras). So, the choice is between b) and c) - 1 T-Ra or none at all.
Another thing to consider is defensive formation. Or to be even more specific - what to put on LOS. Skellies or TGs? I think, putting TGs on LOS, especially in BlackBox environment, is bad starting plan. It can be done vs. some team (especially the ones lacking guard, perfect example was my first Black cup game). But skellies should be LOS folders in general, and we should develop them accordingly.
So, on defense we have 4 or 5 skellies, 3 of them are LOS folders. That leaves space for 1 or 2 specialist.
LOS folders (3)
Skills: Wrestle,(Fend)
IMHO Wrestle is best LOS folder skill, better than block. 1/12 of 2D LOS blocks will be skull+both down or 2x both down, and much more often than not, opponent will save reroll, and your skellie will wrestle down much stronger opponent. Block doesn't give this benefit, skellie will probably be blocked by another player.
After second skill, skellie has few options:
1) Retire
2) If skill is normal, take fend and stay LOS folder.
3) If skill is normal, take DP and become Fouler.
4) If skill is +ST, become Sweeper
5) If skill is double, ignore it and go 2) or 3)
6) If skill is double, go Sidesteps or dodge and stay LOS specialis
7) If skill is normal...
8) If skill is double...
9) ...
First few are pretty much straightforward. 1) helps you to keep TV in check. 2-5) are obvious progress paths. I'm not sure about 6). Looks very annoying on paper, but I'm not sure TV cost is worth it. 7-9) are for your offers.
Kicker
Skills: Kick
After long years of coaching WEs in TT league, I become kick fan. Khemries are opposite of WE, but I find Kick equally useful. Offense has initiative for first 2 turns. After that, positional game starts. Deep kick delays opponent advancement, after 2 turns ball is still in opponents side. So, opponent kind of loses advantage of starting first.
Kicker is almost always has another function, depending from skill rolls:
1) Normal: DP, and he becomes Fouler.
2) Double: Guard
3) ...
Can you offer other options?
Fouler
Skills: DP, (Block/Wrestle, Sneaky Gits)
Fouler is dream job of every skeleton. You get to kill other players, and if referee bans you from game, you can start drinking Bloodwiser earlier. And no risk of getting killed.
Options after second skill:
1) Retire
2) If skill is normal, get Block or Wrestle, and become "Harder to kill Fouler"
3) If skill roll is normal, become Kicker
4) If skill roll is double, take Sneaky gits and become "Maniac Fouler"
5) ...
I don't like 1). You can't have enough DP. Better take Wrestle and become LOS folder with DP. We already discussed 3). I'm not sure about 4). Is it worth it, TV wise? Also, maybe you have other ideas?
Guard skeleton
Skills: Guard, Block, (Dodge, STR if you get lucky).
Guard is always useful. To bad, Khemries does not have much space for Guard skellies. Putting Guard on LOS is not very useful. Even if he wont be knocked out after few turn, he will be stuck next to some Big Guy. Mixing Fouler with Guard is also huge waste.
So, one Guard skelly fits into 5 skellies 0 T-Ra setup, with 3 LOS folder skellies and Fouler.
Sweeper
Skills: +STR, Wrestle, Tackle, Break Tackle.
I had one such skelly (died before BT), and he was amazing. I hope I will get another one soon.
You can develop Sweeper, if your 1st skill roll is +STR, or if your LOS folder with Wrestle gets +STR as second skill.
This Skelly is perfect for 5 Skellies 0 T-Ra setup (together with 3 LOS folders + Kicker/Fouler).
Ball Carrier
Skills: +AG, Block, Sure Hands, Kick-off Return
You can develop this skelly, if you get +AG as 1st skill roll. I did not had such skelly so far, so its hard to say. +AG, +MA, Sure hands skelly is same as T-Ra +AG, without Leader access, with Thick skull for 20k. And extra 2 skill slots taken. Not very impressive on paper. But +AG T-Ras are hard to get.
Defensive lineup
Lets count.
4 TG is must.
2 B-Ra is must.
We have 5 free positions for skeletons and T-Ras. Options:
a) 2 T-Ra + 3 Skellies.
b) 1 T-Ra + 4 Skellies.
c) 5 Skellies
a) Is bad idea in general (may be ok with some special skills/stats combination on T-Ras). So, the choice is between b) and c) - 1 T-Ra or none at all.
Another thing to consider is defensive formation. Or to be even more specific - what to put on LOS. Skellies or TGs? I think, putting TGs on LOS, especially in BlackBox environment, is bad starting plan. It can be done vs. some team (especially the ones lacking guard, perfect example was my first Black cup game). But skellies should be LOS folders in general, and we should develop them accordingly.
So, on defense we have 4 or 5 skellies, 3 of them are LOS folders. That leaves space for 1 or 2 specialist.
LOS folders (3)
Skills: Wrestle,(Fend)
IMHO Wrestle is best LOS folder skill, better than block. 1/12 of 2D LOS blocks will be skull+both down or 2x both down, and much more often than not, opponent will save reroll, and your skellie will wrestle down much stronger opponent. Block doesn't give this benefit, skellie will probably be blocked by another player.
After second skill, skellie has few options:
1) Retire
2) If skill is normal, take fend and stay LOS folder.
3) If skill is normal, take DP and become Fouler.
4) If skill is +ST, become Sweeper
5) If skill is double, ignore it and go 2) or 3)
6) If skill is double, go Sidesteps or dodge and stay LOS specialis
7) If skill is normal...
8) If skill is double...
9) ...
First few are pretty much straightforward. 1) helps you to keep TV in check. 2-5) are obvious progress paths. I'm not sure about 6). Looks very annoying on paper, but I'm not sure TV cost is worth it. 7-9) are for your offers.
Kicker
Skills: Kick
After long years of coaching WEs in TT league, I become kick fan. Khemries are opposite of WE, but I find Kick equally useful. Offense has initiative for first 2 turns. After that, positional game starts. Deep kick delays opponent advancement, after 2 turns ball is still in opponents side. So, opponent kind of loses advantage of starting first.
Kicker is almost always has another function, depending from skill rolls:
1) Normal: DP, and he becomes Fouler.
2) Double: Guard
3) ...
Can you offer other options?
Fouler
Skills: DP, (Block/Wrestle, Sneaky Gits)
Fouler is dream job of every skeleton. You get to kill other players, and if referee bans you from game, you can start drinking Bloodwiser earlier. And no risk of getting killed.
Options after second skill:
1) Retire
2) If skill is normal, get Block or Wrestle, and become "Harder to kill Fouler"
3) If skill roll is normal, become Kicker
4) If skill roll is double, take Sneaky gits and become "Maniac Fouler"
5) ...
I don't like 1). You can't have enough DP. Better take Wrestle and become LOS folder with DP. We already discussed 3). I'm not sure about 4). Is it worth it, TV wise? Also, maybe you have other ideas?
Guard skeleton
Skills: Guard, Block, (Dodge, STR if you get lucky).
Guard is always useful. To bad, Khemries does not have much space for Guard skellies. Putting Guard on LOS is not very useful. Even if he wont be knocked out after few turn, he will be stuck next to some Big Guy. Mixing Fouler with Guard is also huge waste.
So, one Guard skelly fits into 5 skellies 0 T-Ra setup, with 3 LOS folder skellies and Fouler.
Sweeper
Skills: +STR, Wrestle, Tackle, Break Tackle.
I had one such skelly (died before BT), and he was amazing. I hope I will get another one soon.
You can develop Sweeper, if your 1st skill roll is +STR, or if your LOS folder with Wrestle gets +STR as second skill.
This Skelly is perfect for 5 Skellies 0 T-Ra setup (together with 3 LOS folders + Kicker/Fouler).
Ball Carrier
Skills: +AG, Block, Sure Hands, Kick-off Return
You can develop this skelly, if you get +AG as 1st skill roll. I did not had such skelly so far, so its hard to say. +AG, +MA, Sure hands skelly is same as T-Ra +AG, without Leader access, with Thick skull for 20k. And extra 2 skill slots taken. Not very impressive on paper. But +AG T-Ras are hard to get.
Comments
Posted by the_cursed_one on 2013-07-24 11:36:12
personally i find fouling on defense with Khemri makes you lose to much position. on defense i like to go with 4 TG, 2 blitz-ras,1 thro-ra and 4 skellies. 3 man the line with fend first skill to maybe free them up then wrestle(or vice-versa depending on what division im in). i usueally have one blitz-ra as killer with pomb tackler and the other with guard and supports. so he is my mobile guard. then the oother skellie on defense is my kicker. and the thro-ra is for IF you can pop the ball loose with 70k re-rolls sure hands is always nice to have aon the field. and i only build skellies into carriers if they roll +ag on first two skills
On offense ill swap the kicker out for a dp for a gang foul on the first turn or two.
On offense ill swap the kicker out for a dp for a gang foul on the first turn or two.
Posted by bigGuy on 2013-07-24 12:17:51
Why DP on defense:
1) Discourages PO, or punishes opponents for doing it. Blitzers with PO often are worth a lot of TV, so even fouling with few assists+DP offers good risk/reward ratio.
2) If due bad luck on your side or good luck on his side opponent breaks through your defense, and starts camping near LOS, time for gang fouls. DP increases CAS rate by a lot, and encourages opponent to score.
1) Discourages PO, or punishes opponents for doing it. Blitzers with PO often are worth a lot of TV, so even fouling with few assists+DP offers good risk/reward ratio.
2) If due bad luck on your side or good luck on his side opponent breaks through your defense, and starts camping near LOS, time for gang fouls. DP increases CAS rate by a lot, and encourages opponent to score.
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-07-24 12:36:48
I usually go with 4 TG, 2 blitz-ra, 1 thro-ra, 4 skellies, as said to have the trho-ra to capitalize on a loose ball.
Guess against heavy bash I could consider 4 TG, 2 blitz-ra, 5 skellies to better protect my TG and blit-ras on kick off with 3 skellies on the line and a skellie on each corner of the 2nd line.
As for skills first 3 skeletons become dirty players, love to have some reserves since they get banned and blitzed a lot. 2nd skill is wrestle, gives more reliable blocking and another weapon against blodge. Doubles sneaky git or ignore.
Guess 4th would get kick and then wrestle, probably dodge on a double or ignore.
Had a +AG skeleton and it sucked, would never try again. I would also pass on +MA.
+ST I would take as a first skill or on the kicker, but not on a dirty player.
Right now my team has 1 skeleton with 12spp and 1 with 2spp, the rest died, in 40 games I have had a total of 6 skilled skeletons. Think at one point I had 3 dirty players but having a lot of skilled skeletons doesn't seem that likely for me. Again probably has to do with my extreme 'protect guardians at all costs' play style, skilled skeletons take the hits.
Guess against heavy bash I could consider 4 TG, 2 blitz-ra, 5 skellies to better protect my TG and blit-ras on kick off with 3 skellies on the line and a skellie on each corner of the 2nd line.
As for skills first 3 skeletons become dirty players, love to have some reserves since they get banned and blitzed a lot. 2nd skill is wrestle, gives more reliable blocking and another weapon against blodge. Doubles sneaky git or ignore.
Guess 4th would get kick and then wrestle, probably dodge on a double or ignore.
Had a +AG skeleton and it sucked, would never try again. I would also pass on +MA.
+ST I would take as a first skill or on the kicker, but not on a dirty player.
Right now my team has 1 skeleton with 12spp and 1 with 2spp, the rest died, in 40 games I have had a total of 6 skilled skeletons. Think at one point I had 3 dirty players but having a lot of skilled skeletons doesn't seem that likely for me. Again probably has to do with my extreme 'protect guardians at all costs' play style, skilled skeletons take the hits.
Posted by Roland on 2013-07-24 21:34:25
what do you develop first? fodder or dirty players?
Also, how about several dirty players? I'm planning a 14-man roster with 6 skellies, 3 LOS fodder and 3 dirty players. What are your thoughts about that? not necessary? (we play with CRP+ so fouling is easier).
Another thing: isn't kick better on a defensive thro-ra?
Also, how about several dirty players? I'm planning a 14-man roster with 6 skellies, 3 LOS fodder and 3 dirty players. What are your thoughts about that? not necessary? (we play with CRP+ so fouling is easier).
Another thing: isn't kick better on a defensive thro-ra?
Posted by Roland on 2013-07-24 22:00:45
here's the team btw
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=736327
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=736327
Posted by bigGuy on 2013-07-24 22:07:47
I think DP is more important than wrestle LOS.
Now I play with 2 DP max. Sometimes I miss 3rd, but that depends from a ref.
Now I play with 2 DP max. Sometimes I miss 3rd, but that depends from a ref.
Posted by Roland on 2013-07-24 23:14:41
my thought too
I need to get players of the pitch!
I need to get players of the pitch!
Posted by Dhaktokh on 2013-07-24 23:32:24
Two skellies with diving tackle to annoy the the agile teams have made my khemri´s win the swedish league a couple of times. And some grandfathered tomb guardians... Still no dirty player after 43 games. ;-D
Posted by Roland on 2013-07-25 08:19:20
Interesting, i've planned for guard on doubles, but DT is really good...