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asteflix
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2016

2016-11-05 18:46:27
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2016-10-04 14:30:51
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2016-05-30 02:30:46
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2015

2015-12-29 03:28:49
rating 3.9
2016-10-01 14:43:15
13 votes, rating 2
Chaos in Ranked and why I had to discourage my friend from playing Chaos. PART #2
So basically , he told me , I can't play a non clawpomb spam chaos in ranked because I still wont get games against some coaches and my only chances of winning the games I get is to be bashier than the other bashy teams. I told him that would be hard , because you still have to ''grow'' a team in that environment and it will be very hard to get to that ''high'' tv where you'll stop getting smashed by MIN-MAXED TEAMS IN RANKED.

Sadly , he told me that he was really mad about those coaches and that he had to reconsider playing the teams he and I most enjoyed only to actually play games on this site. I told him that if he were lucky , and had a lot of time to waste sitting in gamefinder getting no matches , he could still play some amount of games but some days you'd just get really unlucky and you'd not play for the day. He told me that that was bullshit , and I said that I agree.

In the end , he didnt create and account that day.

(Story Over)

(Rant begin)

Here's the thing : Ranked is supposed to be competitive. But not as competitive as the box. So why do we allow pure minmaxed teams in Ranked ? In the same vein why do we allow CPOMB spam in Ranked ? Honestly , i'd say CPOMB spam is as worse as blodgestep spam on some elf teams and it infuriates me to see those coaches preying on newbies and getting a pretty, shiny, legend coach rating because they pick like motherfuckers and they refuse to play against even the smallest of bash because of their pixels. I'd enforce the policy in which the BOX is the place to minmax and i'd warn the coaches of such teams to stop doing that , and play in a more casual way. For example , my Chaos team https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&showmatches=1&team_id=824946 is a really soft one in terms of bash and the last time I played an elf team was 18 games ago. Honestly , if you guys want a healthy future for Fumbbl you should stop deterring new players such as my friend. I am so crossed about having to actually discourage him from playing what he wants because some coaches will give him shit for playing what he loves and he'll have to sit in gamefinder for goddamn ages before someone takes pity / preys on him and give him a game. What the hell people ? Imagine if you had a bunch of coaches like that in the boardgame store back in the days. They'd sit around waiting for a new guy , crush the new guy , and back to step 1 we go! They'd get thrown out! It's honestly the biggest thing that prevents my friends from coming in , and I think it's why a lot of new coaches stop playing after a while.

Ranked has to change , because else it will die out eventually.
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Comments
Posted by MattDakka on 2016-10-01 15:02:28
Tell your friend to play in Black Box.
Posted by asteflix on 2016-10-01 15:03:51
You sir are part of the problem. He's a NEW PLAYER. Have you read the box's description ?
Posted by asteflix on 2016-10-01 15:04:45
''This division is not recommended for newcomers to Blood Bowl.''
Posted by JellyBelly on 2016-10-01 15:08:41
Tbh, If your friend has that 'rookie' label next to his name, he'll get games whatever team he plays :)
Posted by MattDakka on 2016-10-01 15:09:31
"Not recommended" doesn't mean "forbidden".
If you help him to build a good team he will be better there where he won't be cherrypicked.
By the way how can I be part of the problem of your friend in Ranked if I don't play in Ranked?
Posted by asteflix on 2016-10-01 15:11:31
@JellyBelly What a horrible thing to say .... From personal experience , it's true you get boatloads more games when you're a rookie but that's from people preying on you , not because they're cuddly and wanna teach you all about their favorite game.
Posted by MattDakka on 2016-10-01 15:14:54
Welcome to reality, where people is driven by selfish attitude.
You could play with your friend in Secret League or League, that way you might teach him to play without infringing the rule against playing the same coach too often.
Posted by asteflix on 2016-10-01 15:18:10
Even if I dont always agree with you Matt , i gotta say that's a good idea. But what after ? Do I tell him to go get stomped in box or to go get cherrypicked in R ?
Posted by easilyamused on 2016-10-01 15:22:14
Just let him make his own decisions. The vast majority of coaches on the site are friendly and will give hints and advice if aasked.

True there are a few people around who care far too much about their win %'s but thankfully they are few and far between.
Posted by bghandras on 2016-10-01 15:22:25
I think that label on blackbox is misleading. It is undoubtly there, but acccepting it without critique is pure judgement (or laziness).
Posted by asteflix on 2016-10-01 15:24:56
He's a new player wondering if the game's even worth spending time on. I'm trying to get him to play a few games against coaches that are not me , but im scared of him encountering unfriendly coaches in B or getting cherrypicked in R
Posted by Medon on 2016-10-01 15:26:50
What's wrong with being preyed upon by cherry pickers? You'll more quickly learn the game by playing against top coaches than against fellow rookies...
Posted by MattDakka on 2016-10-01 15:29:08
Being stomped is part of the learning process, you can't learn to play without playing (oh, really, Matt? XD Such deep insight!) and playing implies being stomped sometimes. Being stomped is not that bad if he learns from mistakes and doesn't get disheartened, experience has a price to pay.

I would go step by step with your friend, for now try to teach him the basics with friendly matches, if he gets hooked and he's motivated enough he can dive into the maelstrom of Black Box once he's experienced enough.
Really, Black Box is not that bad in the 1000-1500 range.
Posted by asteflix on 2016-10-01 15:32:11
Personally , it took a few stompings before i understood the game. But thankfully , I took those stompings live , against friends , not against unknown people on the Internet. I also disliked a lot my starting matches on Fumbbl , because whilst some coaches were really nice , some would not talk at all and some would cry about being diced by a rookie coach. And that's not a fun environment to get into.
Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2016-10-01 15:34:45
Medon - there are people running around [R] with ~70% win rates that I wouldn't even class as average. They do not provide educational, informative or even enjoyable games to their opponents, and some of them are borderline abusive.
Posted by JellyBelly on 2016-10-01 15:49:16
asteflix, I don't say it to be horrible, it's just the truth. A 'rookie' coach will have no problems getting games in [R] (whether they're 'good' games or not, though ..)

If he's afraid of picking in [R] or CPOMB in [B], he'd probably be best starting off in the 145 club, or in [L] more generally, where you can teach him the ropes.
Posted by LucaAnt on 2016-10-01 15:59:44
Sometimes you get nice opponents, sometimes you don't, it doesn't even matter if it's Ranked or BlackBox. Of course having some new "friends" here it's better, it's just a matter of time, don't worry. If you really like the game just play it, R or B it's exactly the same at some point. And if you didn't enjoyed playing versus a particular coach just avoid him, something that you can't do in the Box to be honest, but that's not so important in the end, the game will end soon or late :D

I strongly suggest your friend to start getting games in L (yes, just not playing vs. you) and see what's going on. Then if hw wants to jump instantly in the ocean shouldn't be surprised if sometimes will feed some shark, this is going to happen anyway :D
Posted by asteflix on 2016-10-01 16:01:36
Very true carlo , thank you for your suggestion :)
Posted by Medon on 2016-10-01 16:12:56
by the way, playing against chaos isn't so bad for elves. People should try it more often! Especially if they don't have sure hands and you do have strip ball :-)
Posted by Medon on 2016-10-01 16:13:54
(so, if you're chaos and you want games against elves, don't pick sure hands)
Posted by bghandras on 2016-10-01 16:25:27
My experience
Some people dont talk in the box. But very little if any antisocial comments.
In ranked i had quite a few antisocial comments. And also more funny comment.

People tend to be more talkative in ranked. For better or for worse..
Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2016-10-01 16:29:55
Medon - i replied to the pt1 too with more detailed thoughts on this, but why should *anyone* have to make completely sub-optimal skill choices in order to get a game?

You have actually just suggested doing something that elicits laughter from people spectating games "lol no ballcarrier" in order to facilitate getting games from opponents.

No.
Posted by garyt1 on 2016-10-01 16:58:07
At least you don't need to people rage quitting / disconnecting mid game like in cyanide.
Posted by Medon on 2016-10-01 17:12:52
@AD: fact = skill choices do affect type of opponents you get in ranked, whether you like it or not. Take a time to think about it. What you call 'optimal' skill choices are not. They are optimized only for in-game effectiveness, but not for the full dimensional problem including finding opponents. So by definition, they are in fact sub-optimized. Real optimization should take the full problem into consideration, which includes getting nice games. (That's why we're here after all...)
Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2016-10-01 17:22:12
Telling someone not to take sure hands to ensure they can get games against elves is flat out crass.

You are effectively telling them not to take a skill which hinders their ability to play the game against -any- opponent, hinders them both on-field (and off-field) in terms of having to use (and therefore potentially carry) more rerolls, costs them positionally and tactically vs leapers... the list goes on.

You are effectively saying that an opponent should 'cede an advantage towards you before you will play him. That is *not* getting a "nice game", that is you "leveraging" your opponent, and effectively reducing competitiveness.
Posted by Lorebass on 2016-10-01 17:55:05
Carlo_Pellegatti with the ranked wisdom of the ages!
BUt yeah, stick to league, there are hundreds of them and many quite active!

https://fumbbl.com/p/groups
Posted by Kondor on 2016-10-01 18:55:31
My recommendation to him is to start whatever team he likes. For the first 50 games play mostly rookie to star coaches. He will get games.

Join the 145 club.

After 50 games in ranked take your chances in the box.
Posted by Arktoris on 2016-10-01 18:59:17
in Ranked you get what you give. That's all part of bloodbowl.

sounds to me like he didn't want to get what he was giving.
Posted by thoralf on 2016-10-01 20:03:25
Thank you for the case and for the rant, asteflix.

A few things that I think have not been mentioned or is worth repeating:

First, R can't be that competitive, because players can pick and choose. The Book of Dakka is right on that one. End of story.

Second, tell your friend to watch games. This way, he'll learn vicariously about the game. He'll also recognize which players he should play against.

Third, your friend should learn to use the website. There are forum threads on everything that has been discussed. There are statistics, games replay, etc. It should be easy to anyone with a modicum of playing experience to recognize if a stardom status is deserved or not.

Fourth, the best way to learn the game is to build a team conservatively. This means you take Block and Guard and Tackle, not Mighty Blow and Claw and Piling On. He'll get more games too. Speaking of which, my own policy, which I borrowed from a very good coach, is never to play a PO coach in R. Which leads me to:

Fifth, tell your friends to PLAY ALL THE DIVISIONS! That way he'll learn what suits him best. That way he'll play Arktoris in R, Matt in B, and other very good coaches in L.

And that's the memo.
Posted by pythrr on 2016-10-01 20:31:41
"Ranked is supposed to be competitive. But not as competitive as the box."

where did you find this rule? asking for a friend.
Posted by asteflix on 2016-10-01 21:11:41
There is a short description of both divisions when you create a team pythrr
Posted by Lorebass on 2016-10-01 21:55:35
Haha, you guys are funny. Ranked is VERY competitive, thats why all the picking. So many coaches are building their teams for the different tournaments we put out. Sadly that can take away from others (I can't even get a dang game with my Tournament Undead anymore).

All of the leagues are quite competitive including stunty and Secret though if your friend is a new coach avoid those until you have defeated at least average coaches without all 6's (cause the cas factor there will depress some!! hehe).
Posted by thoralf on 2016-10-01 21:59:51
That people play competitively in R doesn't mean it is.

Competitiveness implies a valid rating system. Picking invalidates ratings. Checkmate.
Posted by LucaAnt on 2016-10-02 00:17:35
It's not competitive in the moment you play only certain races at some conditions, most of the coaches (i'm not considering myself since i'm playing another game :D) try to play fair.
Posted by pythrr on 2016-10-02 01:25:14
you guys ahve weird and differing ideas of "competitive".

may i respectfully suggest that you are all talking out of yr asses.
Posted by Uedder on 2016-10-02 13:02:19
Thoralf you're talking without knowing.

Try to complete an E.L.F. Cycle. Or try to win one.

Ranked is as competitive as you want it to be, and some of the closest matches i've had were in Ranked.

Both Ranked and Box could use some kind of goal/reward system to increase competitiveness imo. CR and ladders just ain't enough.
Posted by Medon on 2016-10-02 23:46:27
@AD don't get angry please, don't shoot the messenger. All I did was stating two facts that are true (whether we like it or not):
1) if you don't take sure hands on a Chaos team, you'll get more games offered by [R] wood elves.
2) 'sub-optimization' is by definition an optimization on a subset of variables, i.e. not the full multidimensional problem.

It makes no sense to question the facts themselves or get upset about it. The truth is the truth. The real question is what to do with these two facts, and how to let these two facts influence our decisions.