60 coaches online • Server time: 18:31
* * * Did you know? The fouliest player is Bruce Wayne XVII with 2010 fouls.
Recent Forum Topics  Conceding v Goblins/... | Advice tabletop tour... | War Drums? |
2011-11-15 03:04:27
24 votes, rating 2.8
24 votes, rating 2.8
Frustration With The D6
I'm a pretty new player that probably would have left BB a while ago save for the fun league I'm in. So, take this with a grain of salt as while it may look composed, at the end of the day, this might just be a rant in the guise of a composed post.
The other night, I had a potential game winning (or at least tying) pass intercepted. Frustrating. Then I thought about it some more and realized just how frustrating it was.
BTW, I'm using the interception rules as an example but this could be applied to almost everything.
The main reason for my frustration was that it was made by an AG2 (EDITED BY STAFF, WATCH THE LANGUAGE)...not sure if that's the real type of player but it will do. After checking and double checking the rules, I found out that while theoretically impossible to do as he needed a 7+ on a D6, the "succeed on a natural 6" rule trumps logic.
So, as it goes, any AG3 player has the same chance to make an interception as an AG2 or even AG1 player...surround the player with 8 friendly players in the pouring rain and that 16+ roll still becomes a natural 6.
This I see as a huge shortcoming with BB and while most here are will to adjust their though process to accommodate such leaps of faith, I am having a real problem with it.
While I agree that there should always be a chance for success regardless of the situation, an AG3 in the open on a nice day should not have the same chance to make the interception as a near inanimate object, in the rain, surrounded by 8 opposing players.
I would love to see BB move to a D100 system. This would save the game for me and limit (but probably not eliminate my freak outs). Strategy and tactics would explode as opposed to the "try to roll the least number of time" mentality I see now.
BB is a brilliant game...but pure evil when it come to hope and the wild expectation that a play might develop as it should.
Maybe I should check my logical expectations at the door...
Thank-you for your time...
Vent off...
ps. I hope my prize for posting a blog is nice and shiny...
The other night, I had a potential game winning (or at least tying) pass intercepted. Frustrating. Then I thought about it some more and realized just how frustrating it was.
BTW, I'm using the interception rules as an example but this could be applied to almost everything.
The main reason for my frustration was that it was made by an AG2 (EDITED BY STAFF, WATCH THE LANGUAGE)...not sure if that's the real type of player but it will do. After checking and double checking the rules, I found out that while theoretically impossible to do as he needed a 7+ on a D6, the "succeed on a natural 6" rule trumps logic.
So, as it goes, any AG3 player has the same chance to make an interception as an AG2 or even AG1 player...surround the player with 8 friendly players in the pouring rain and that 16+ roll still becomes a natural 6.
This I see as a huge shortcoming with BB and while most here are will to adjust their though process to accommodate such leaps of faith, I am having a real problem with it.
While I agree that there should always be a chance for success regardless of the situation, an AG3 in the open on a nice day should not have the same chance to make the interception as a near inanimate object, in the rain, surrounded by 8 opposing players.
I would love to see BB move to a D100 system. This would save the game for me and limit (but probably not eliminate my freak outs). Strategy and tactics would explode as opposed to the "try to roll the least number of time" mentality I see now.
BB is a brilliant game...but pure evil when it come to hope and the wild expectation that a play might develop as it should.
Maybe I should check my logical expectations at the door...
Thank-you for your time...
Vent off...
ps. I hope my prize for posting a blog is nice and shiny...
Comments
Posted by Beerox on 2011-11-15 03:21:07
"Maybe I should check my logical expectations at the door..."
You're onto something here...
"BB is a brilliant game..."
Nutty things happen all the time, that's a big part of why we love the game. You have to adapt to and embrace the madness!
You're onto something here...
"BB is a brilliant game..."
Nutty things happen all the time, that's a big part of why we love the game. You have to adapt to and embrace the madness!
Posted by ahalfling on 2011-11-15 03:42:55
All things involve risk. If some things in Blood Bowl didn't involve appreciable risk, this game would get a lot "easier", and a lot less strategically rich.
Sure, it would be convenient if you didn't have to worry about your passes getting intercepted by (for example) a zombie in a tackle zone.
It's also convenient if you make a plan to not pass over the zombie in the first place. (If that wasn't possible, it may be because the opponent managed to disrupt your game plan through positioning.)
And you can still MAKE it convenient by getting your passer Safe Throw. (Though he'd have to do that at the cost of another skill... so that's another decision to make.)
By cutting out possibilities and "moving parts", such as the chance of a zombie intercepting the ball or an elf failing a handoff, you don't increase the game's strategic depth, you weaken it. Blood Bowl is, at its core, a game of probability management. There are very few things you can do and not risk failure, and that's by design.
(Once you've become good at outpositioning your opponent, interceptions are one of the few things you CAN usually avoid. Well, unless you decide that the reward outweighs the risk...)
Sure, it would be convenient if you didn't have to worry about your passes getting intercepted by (for example) a zombie in a tackle zone.
It's also convenient if you make a plan to not pass over the zombie in the first place. (If that wasn't possible, it may be because the opponent managed to disrupt your game plan through positioning.)
And you can still MAKE it convenient by getting your passer Safe Throw. (Though he'd have to do that at the cost of another skill... so that's another decision to make.)
By cutting out possibilities and "moving parts", such as the chance of a zombie intercepting the ball or an elf failing a handoff, you don't increase the game's strategic depth, you weaken it. Blood Bowl is, at its core, a game of probability management. There are very few things you can do and not risk failure, and that's by design.
(Once you've become good at outpositioning your opponent, interceptions are one of the few things you CAN usually avoid. Well, unless you decide that the reward outweighs the risk...)
Posted by Cavetroll on 2011-11-15 04:10:07
It is supposed to be frustrating. But once in a while, you are the recipient of the craziness and then it feels good.
Posted by Nekran on 2011-11-15 04:36:05
Blood bowl is supposed to be a mad, chaotic game and it's these things that make it so succesful at being just that. If a d100 was used, a lot of the chaos would dissapear, which would be sad imo. No matter how frustrating it is sometimes.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-11-15 08:54:16
um
language?
language?
Posted by Emeric on 2011-11-15 09:11:27
ahalfling said it all. Exactly.
Posted by koadah on 2011-11-15 09:24:34
Simple question. Why are you passing over a player who has a 1/6 chance of intercepting the ball?
Why do you need to pass the ball to get to the end zone at all?
You're not losing because of the D6. You're losing because other coaches are playing better than you are.
If you go to D100, D20, D12 etc and make the game more serious and chess like those coaches will be even further ahead of you. Your frustration will then come from not even being able to get close to a game tying/winning TD.
Playing vs the top Fumbbl coaches would be a complete waste of time for most of us. With such a small user base that would kill the game for sure.
Fun vs logic? I think most would prefer fun.
Why do you need to pass the ball to get to the end zone at all?
You're not losing because of the D6. You're losing because other coaches are playing better than you are.
If you go to D100, D20, D12 etc and make the game more serious and chess like those coaches will be even further ahead of you. Your frustration will then come from not even being able to get close to a game tying/winning TD.
Playing vs the top Fumbbl coaches would be a complete waste of time for most of us. With such a small user base that would kill the game for sure.
Fun vs logic? I think most would prefer fun.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-11-15 10:49:42
1/6 is a fair chance of failure.
if it was 1/10, or 1/100, then the game would lose its edge.
if it was 1/10, or 1/100, then the game would lose its edge.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2011-11-15 11:25:12
GW made a decision about 15-20 years ago to go with the d6 in almost all situations to simplify and speed up play. This isn't going to change. If you bring in an extra dice for interceptions, more will follow in other 'improbable' situations.
Posted by Fela on 2011-11-15 11:32:22
Actually Shadowrun uses only D6 too and is not quite as limited.
Just pointing out that the limitation in BB is voluntary and not an intrinsic property of using solely D6 :).
Just pointing out that the limitation in BB is voluntary and not an intrinsic property of using solely D6 :).
Posted by Ffoley on 2011-11-15 16:01:48
There's plenty of rolls in the game that aren't done on a standard D6. Most obviously those done on 2D6 like armour.
They could have put agility on a similar basis to armour e.g. had player agility stats values between 6 and 10 and then had tests on 2D6 which would allow a wider spread. But they didn't and I think its fine as it is.
They could have put agility on a similar basis to armour e.g. had player agility stats values between 6 and 10 and then had tests on 2D6 which would allow a wider spread. But they didn't and I think its fine as it is.
Posted by opusthefowl on 2011-11-15 16:13:00
For everyone that has replied with something along the lines of "Ya, it's supposed to drive you nuts", thanks! Game mechanics aside, you are bang-on and I just need to chill and either learn to live with it or walk away. It's a fantastic game...It will still drive me bonkers though...
Everyone discussing what you should do to avoid getting intercepted in the first place...you missed the point...
People saying that that a larger range of results with a larger die range are right as it would change the flavor of BB significantly. While I may prefer it, you are right, it wouldn't be BB anymore.
Sorry mods...didn't realize that a word that I thought was commonly used on TV in at least UK, Canada and the US(ok, less common) was banned here. I thought that was pretty benign and commonplace these days...Just wondering, is that other very common word that starts with a "b" allowed? You know the one similar to Sandra Bullock's last name...
Thanks for replying everyone...If I continue playing BB, I will be sure to get a prescription of Prozac. If the doctor also plays BB, I am sure it wouldn't be a problem getting one.
:)
Everyone discussing what you should do to avoid getting intercepted in the first place...you missed the point...
People saying that that a larger range of results with a larger die range are right as it would change the flavor of BB significantly. While I may prefer it, you are right, it wouldn't be BB anymore.
Sorry mods...didn't realize that a word that I thought was commonly used on TV in at least UK, Canada and the US(ok, less common) was banned here. I thought that was pretty benign and commonplace these days...Just wondering, is that other very common word that starts with a "b" allowed? You know the one similar to Sandra Bullock's last name...
Thanks for replying everyone...If I continue playing BB, I will be sure to get a prescription of Prozac. If the doctor also plays BB, I am sure it wouldn't be a problem getting one.
:)
Posted by Juff on 2011-11-15 17:04:03
Here's the thing - if you really, really need something to succeed, 5/6 is terrible.
Final Fantasy Tactics, as well as being a great game, is fantastic for teaching you that even 95% success when a failure will doom you just isn't high enough :p
Final Fantasy Tactics, as well as being a great game, is fantastic for teaching you that even 95% success when a failure will doom you just isn't high enough :p
Posted by uuni on 2011-11-15 17:51:16
I would like to say that I appreciate and understand your point, opusthefowl.
I feel that your frustration may come from a expectation of "simulationess" in blood bowl. As you suggested, when you get your point of view turned into "arbitary, but nice boardgame with nice fluff" from the "simulation of ballgame between elves and orcs", your frustration may ease. I believe that path would be the correct one for you, if you so choose.
Good luck and have fun!
I feel that your frustration may come from a expectation of "simulationess" in blood bowl. As you suggested, when you get your point of view turned into "arbitary, but nice boardgame with nice fluff" from the "simulation of ballgame between elves and orcs", your frustration may ease. I believe that path would be the correct one for you, if you so choose.
Good luck and have fun!
Posted by pythrr on 2011-11-15 18:04:35
or, you know, you could just learn to laff at stuff
:)
:)
Posted by opusthefowl on 2011-11-15 19:11:11
uuni
BINGO...you hit the nail on the head...I gotta get it out of my head that this is anything resembling a sim and just roll (ehm) with it...
Thanks again...
BINGO...you hit the nail on the head...I gotta get it out of my head that this is anything resembling a sim and just roll (ehm) with it...
Thanks again...