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TheFear



Joined: Jan 20, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 08:24 Reply with quote Back to top

This all makes sense to me.

I've always struggled to get a game in black box - I think I've managed it once!! I assume because I'm trying to spin with new/ low tv teams and everyone else has high TV teams. It feels like a bit of a closed shop.

The experience has kept me playing in ranked where it seems so much quicker and easier to get games.

Making a combined division and/ or giving teams the option to switch between game finder and scheduler seems like a fantastic idea to me.
Seventyone



Joined: Dec 02, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 09:13 Reply with quote Back to top

I think all those wanting to keep "hardcore" teams away from the old ranked teams need to be careful what they wish for. We don't know what the meta will be like with the new rules and there is a risk, even with seasons, that the only teams left in the random match making are bash heavy exploit teams (remember clawpomb, min/max pact, etc. etc.) which will result in a smaller and smaller player base and the death of that division. If you allow in the "picker" teams you might well get some nice squishy elves etc to beat up.

Box has died once and almost died again a couple of times.

Hardcore should mean willing to take on ANYONE even crazily picked ex ranked teams

More importantly thanks to Christer for devoting so much of his time to this site and for already thinking about the implications of the rule changes.

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Sableheart



Joined: Jul 14, 2014

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 09:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the post Christer, you did put quite a bit of thought into this. Overall, I'm very happy with the proposals. In particular, I want to highlight the decision to implement seasons, as the current ruleset is build around them.

Regarding the merging of box and ranked, I'm currently a box only player. The reason for this is that when I started playing, I didn't have the experience to accurately estimate the strength of a team. Others did, however, and I ended up in some very unfun matchups. With box, I can expect much fairer matchmaking (with some exceptions). Especially since the introduction of the trophy, this has been a very positive environment. I find it difficult to estimate what the effect of allowing ranked teams to play box games would be, but I'm mildly positive, for two reasons. Firstly, I'm not all that concerned about running into a team build by cherrypicking, mainly because a coach who builds their team by cherrypicking doesn't have much reason to enter the box. After all, they are far less likely to get the easy matches their looking for there. Secondly, allowing ranked teams to enter the box might mean a bit more players looking for games in box, so being more likely to get a game. However, I'm not expecting a big effect here, because most players who would be willing to play box games probably already have a box team.

Regarding the Blackbox Trophy, if normal teams have to rebuild after 20 games, you can change the trophy to 5 teams with 20 games per team. That way, you wouldn't need a special exception for trophy teams.

Finally, I must admit that I have some doubts about the new ruleset. Games Workshop's focus is selling miniatures, not games. They won't hesitate to make a ruleset worse if it allows them to sell more mini's. If there is an easy way to keep the old ruleset available for league commissioners, that would be greatly appreciated.
The_Carthaginian



Joined: Mar 05, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 10:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm v happy with the proposed approach. I've liked the majority of the proposed rule changes, and while change is difficult, these are not so drastic in the grand scheme of things, and it's good for the site to keep up to date with them.

There will always be some divergences because of the nature of the client and gameplay on FUMBBL. I saw one new rule about accidentally setting up too many players, with them then being sent off if the other player notices. I think this would be a bit tedious and would be happy for that to be precluded with the current "you have set up too many players" dialogue box.

My suggestion for the name of the new Black Box mode is "Heroic Mode".

Also if the client is being changed, then I would also like to suggest the following two (very low priority) adjustments:
- Fixing it so the chat bar/bottom of the client isn't hidden by the window border in Linux. Perhaps a pretty border could be added to the bottom edge?
- Adding buttons for the spectator chat commands, ideally with some kind of visual effect to show when they can and can't be mashed again.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 10:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I wonder if teams in their First "Season" should only be able to play teams in their first season as well?

The reason is I could build a team of dirty player goblins easily, and just foul like mad at rookie level, (to be clear I wouldnt do this, but someone will), and you could in theory keep a lot of your DP players post draft and stay at rookie level.

Maybe it doesn't need to be a hard rule but I think the algorythm in the Blackbox draw should at least heavily push Season 1 teams to play other Season 1 teams so that redrafted low tv teams aren't their opposition all the time. Because these redrafted teams will oftentimes look like min maxed to the max teams.

After Season 1, or maybe 2 teams should be matched purely on their TV, I think the games played part of the algorythm could likely be done away with after seasons is introduced.

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spubbbba



Joined: Jul 31, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 11:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Seventyone wrote:

Hardcore should mean willing to take on ANYONE even crazily picked ex ranked teams


Exactly this, you can't give those teams a silly macho name if they are only using the scheduler to avoid tough games against teams built through "cherrypicking".

Besides if any divisions deserves the tough nickname it should be [L]eague.

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Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 11:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the cherry picking problem as in, having superteams built through easy matches, will be mostly gone through
a)seasons
b) new leveling system

They are both a leveling ground.

There may also be a solution to this: the 2016 rules had friendlies: games against chosen opposition, that still counted money-wise but gave no spp, though injuries would stick.
If this will still be a thing that's what *new ranked* could be?
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 11:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Uedder wrote:
I think the cherry picking problem as in, having superteams built through easy matches, will be mostly gone through
a)seasons
b) new leveling system

They are both a leveling ground.

There may also be a solution to this: the 2016 rules had friendlies: games against chosen opposition, that still counted money-wise but gave no spp, though injuries would stick.
If this will still be a thing that's what *new ranked* could be?


yeah agreed, it seems like a non issue to me. Also what is there to be scared of now anyway, there are no dangerous weapons anymore, its not like there are CPOMB teams etc...

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Hovring



Joined: Oct 29, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 12:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I have a take on how we could limit the 20 games of pimping for tournaments – if that is something we want off course.

Idea: When you join a tournament you will be forced to redraft for that tourney. Each tournament has a redraft cap above the one in normal C division. After the tournament you will need to redraft again for a new tournament or C division.

With this system you would have a more balanced pool of teams entering tournaments. Majors could have higher caps where some pimping would be needed to reach that level, but not 20 games of pimping - which sounds really boring to me.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 12:13 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm confused why people keep talking about doing the redraft before the tourney, the whole point of the tourney is to do at the end of the season, your team should be in peak condition going into it, its the thing to aim for?

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 12:14 Reply with quote Back to top

merging R and B into one division...the best news I've heard in 10 years.

In fact, so far I haven't heard anything that sounds bad about these rules or proposed fumbbl changes. This is all kinds of awesome.

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Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 12:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Sableheart wrote:
Regarding the merging of box and ranked, I'm currently a box only player. The reason for this is that when I started playing, I didn't have the experience to accurately estimate the strength of a team. Others did, however, and I ended up in some very unfun matchups. With box, I can expect much fairer matchmaking (with some exceptions).

This is an important observation, and challenges the assumption that Blackbox is "hardcore".
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 13:22 Reply with quote Back to top

No need to call it hardcore: Blind Matchmaking or Ranked Matchmaking.
As I said, people new to the site would surely understand immediately what that would be.
Normal and Hardcore are not really clear, if are you new to FUMBBL.
Personally I would not play in the hardcore (or whatever name the TV MM would be called) division to feel macho and tough, but just to be able to play blind TV-based matchmaking without facing unfair picking teams and be 100% sure that I face a team which got there exactly in the same way I did, without picking.
If I don't pick I have the right to play only vs other non-picking teams, if you don't care, ok, but it still doesn't deny this right.
If we are interested in volume of games and not splitting the coaches, people must play only in a single blind MM division for purpose of gaining CR and playing Majors.
If people want to play with GF ok, but they lose the right to earn CR points and join a Major, and they can't be matched with blind matchmaking teams.
Having 2 different divisions where the teams of one division have 2 ways to find a game (so they are favoured) yet they can face teams which can play only through scheduler (without picking and with just 1 way to find a game) is clearly unfair.


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 08, 2020 - 13:31; edited 6 times in total
steinerp



Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 13:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion, the primary benefit is that it allows team to not have to redraft as long as they don't play in a tournament. Your team will still be in a good condition as you get to keep the players you want (up to tv of course). It also means that those players that haven't had time for 20 games are on similar footing, just with less players to choose from
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 08, 2020 - 13:23 Reply with quote Back to top

I think "Hardcore" is not a god name. Maybe call it "Ripper" division?

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