45 coaches online • Server time: 20:01
Forum Chat
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Creating a custom to...goto Post Secret League Americ...goto Post DOTP Season 4
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2020 - 23:40 Reply with quote Back to top

im very much with garion here. WIP introduces another failstate to passing, a catastrophic one to boot. with 1/6 its already a huge passing nerf, with even more it pretty much just deletes passing. WIP is bad design for an already underused aspect of the game.

but its nice to see that everyone is on the same page now about the big passing nerf in this edition.

_________________
Image
Image
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 00:05 Reply with quote Back to top

neubau wrote:

but its nice to see that everyone is on the same page now about the big passing nerf in this edition.

One of the rare threads where everybody agrees about something. Very Happy
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 00:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Heroic_Tackle wrote:

It looks to me that Passing got worse, even for Throwers. Passing is not just Quick Pass, Mr. Designer?

Confused


Yes definitively passing will be very difficult in the new rules, nobody will dare a Long Pass, even a Thrower with the pass skill must try a "Long Bomb" to make a Long Pass (and forget to try to launch the ball with Undead's or Necro's Blitzers...)

We can change the name from Fantasy Football to Fantasy Rugby Razz Razz Razz
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 00:56 Reply with quote Back to top

There are more passes in a Rugby game than in BB 2020. Very Happy
Yes, pass will be a desperate action when safer options are not viable, even more desperate than now, because of Wildly Inaccurate.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 01:04 Reply with quote Back to top

it is necessary an Errata. Like this the rule is a catastopher-
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 01:07 Reply with quote Back to top

In theory you should be able to just run with the ball without passing in most games, so not a big disaster, but yes, it's a badly designed rule.
If you pass in the very last turn of a half, so even in case of failure your opponent can't get the ball and score, Wildly Inaccurate won't make a difference.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 01:23 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
CrookfangRob wrote:
So, most throwers who are carrying 2 extra skills, end up about as good as they start in the current rules.

Thanks for clearing that up.


Eh... Noo...

A rookie Elf with agility 4 that throws a Long Bomb will Fumble on 1-3, Inaccurate on a 4 and Accurate on a 5+.

In the new rules a Thrower with PA 2+. Fumbles on a "1", "Wildly Inaccurate" in a "2", Inaccurate on 3-4 and Accurate on a 5+.

With Connoneer that same Thrower throws the Long bomb with Fumble on a "1", Inaccurate on 2-3 and Accurate on a 4+.

In the Old rules a thrower with Accurate will Fumble in 1-2, Inaccurate in 3, Accurate on a 4+.

That is the difference.

It also get worse in the old rules as you add thrower being marked or if disturbing presence is around.

I also think that you will either build a thrower as a quick/short pass one or as a long/long bomb one and not both.


I agree that the "fumble" now happen less often , and it is easier to launch the ball "somewhere" to be pick by someone.
But also it has been dramatic changed skills of some team with the PA="-"
Necro will never ever try to launch a ball
Undead the same. Dark Elves quite penalized.
Niessuh



Joined: Dec 11, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 01:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:

King_Ghidra wrote:

Niessuh wrote:
Wait, it is true that new rules rules do not say about using multiple RRs on the same turn. The old "The coach may not use more than one Re-roll counter per turn" is gone...

that is an omission. it will be errata'd

I would imagine so too


Well I could agree with you indeed, but right now this is wishful thinking. This is like widly innacurate being just a one or one and less, before of the GW video.

Right now a newcomer could start a tabletop match and perfectly argue that he could RR several times per turn... if you tell him that in previous editions he couldn't, he will laugh in your face.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 01:30 Reply with quote Back to top

There is no issue with most players not able to pass very accurately and passing relegated to dedicated positional players. This could have been a rather positive effect on the game for many reasons.

The issue that almost everyone have is how they implemented the "Wildly Inaccurate" effect of a failed pass action. This effect simply is too much of a risk as it will be nearly impossible to have any control over where the ball lands and it will be really easy to deflect as well or even worse intercepted.

I think that if the passing remain as it is written in the rules, or intended rather... then I think we have to play with some house rules for passing in the future. First time I ever used a house rule for any pure mechanic in Blood Bowl... Sad

I would be OK with the Pass skill only throw WIP on a die roll LESS than "1" on a modified roll. This means a thrower out of the box can launch short passes with fear of no WIP and a 1/6 chance on a Long Pass... I you also get Cannoneer they could throw even Long Pass with no WIP result. For me that would probably be enough to make it work decently.


Last edited by CAB on Nov 30, 2020 - 01:37; edited 1 time in total
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 01:31 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
In theory you should be able to just run with the ball without passing in most games, so not a big disaster, but yes, it's a badly designed rule.
If you pass in the very last turn of a half, so even in case of failure your opponent can't get the ball and score, Wildly Inaccurate won't make a difference.


But this is no more football.
Even traditionally agile team like elves they can dare a short pass only with a Thrower (if they have one like Elves Union. The Dark Elves are totally dead!)

To be honest I'm more shocked about this PA features so "uncoherently" bad for some teams, than the Wildly Inaccurate Pass which reduce the "fumbles" occurrences but as it is "totally random" again this introduce again a totally random variable that nobody will risk a part in a desesperate case.

Anyway... something need to be fixed. Let's see.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 01:38 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
There is no issue with most players not able to pass very accurately and passing relegated to dedicated positional players. This could have been a rather positive effect on the game for many reasons.


I agree that a Zombie with PA = "-" does not dramatically change the way you play with Undead.
But what about Dark Elves with
Lineman : PA = 4+
Runners: PA = 3+
Blitzers: PA = 4+
Assassins : PA = 5+
Witch Elves : PA = 5+
Nobody with Dark Elves will dare a Short pass... and even a quick pass can be very tricky for most of the team players. They have simply destroyed the ability to pass of the Dark Elves without compensate anything.

CAB wrote:

The issue that almost everyone have is how they implemented the "Wildly Inaccurate" effect of a failed pass action. This effect simply is too much of a risk as it will be nearly impossible to have any control over where the ball lands and it will be really easy to deflect as well or even worse intercepted.


I have tendency to agree with you even if I hate so much the "fumble" Smile. But you're right: the Wildy Inaccurate pass introduce a total random variable in the pass and I can think most of players will refrain from passing "tout court"

CAB wrote:

I think that if the passing remain as it is written in the rules, or intended rather... then I think we have to play with some house rules for passing in the future. First time I ever used a house rule for any pure mechanic in Blood Bowl... Sad


What do you mean ?
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 01:47 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
In theory you should be able to just run with the ball without passing in most games, so not a big disaster, but yes, it's a badly designed rule.
If you pass in the very last turn of a half, so even in case of failure your opponent can't get the ball and score, Wildly Inaccurate won't make a difference.


But this is no more football.
Even traditionally agile team like elves they can dare a short pass only with a Thrower (if they have one like Elves Union. The Dark Elves are totally dead!)

To be honest I'm more shocked about this PA features so "uncoherently" bad for some teams, than the Wildly Inaccurate Pass which reduce the "fumbles" occurrences but as it is "totally random" again this introduce again a totally random variable that nobody will risk a part in a desesperate case.

Anyway... something need to be fixed. Let's see.


There are new skills to help running teams and Dump-Off also is a bit easier to pull off without Nerves of Steel. You perform the dump-off pass when the player blocking or most likely blitzing announce its action.

One of the reason for the change was so throwers had a role to play and also likely make it harder for agility teams to get a ball away from a scrum. They still steal fairly well anyway though.

Another reason was likely to stopping farming of SPP on agility teams.

The rules change will make the thrower on the team important.

However in most opinion they missed the mark with the changes to risk taking of the new passing rules. The changing of the stats is an interesting new challenge to overcome.


Last edited by CAB on Nov 30, 2020 - 02:53; edited 2 times in total
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 01:48 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:

What do you mean ?


When we play the board game... Wink
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 01:57 Reply with quote Back to top

The more I read the "Wildy inaccurate pass" the more I agree with the people in this forum who think that is no good. The key word is "the ball "deviate". To decide how the ball "deviate" you must roll D8 and use the "RANDOM DIRECTION TEMPLATE" . This means that if you get a result "Wildly Inaccurate Pass" after the modifiers you can launch a ball "behind you"!!!

Even in a dice game this is totally crazy. I can accept the crowd launch the ball wherever. I can accept that if I try to launch the ball and I am disturbed it fumbles. But not that if I try to make a long bomb in front of me the result is that I launch a long bomb BEHIND ME. Razz Razz :p

A very simple modification of this rule to make this less ridicolous would be to use the "Throw-In-Template" to inidcate the direction of the wildly inaccurate pass + scatter on the landing square (several times eventually). This will be more realistic
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2020 - 02:05 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:


Another reason was stopping farming of SPP on agility teams.



Do you mean to have too many players with DODGE, BLOCK, PASS in agility team make them impossible to control?
but this is the risk to play vs agility team.
Now if for an agility team you have only a couple of players who can make one decent launch , the strategy for your opponent will be to kill as soon as possible your thrower, and without the trhower for an agility team the match is almost over.
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic