41 coaches online • Server time: 12:35
Forum Chat
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Secret League Americ...goto Post DOTP Season 4goto Post Skittles' Centu...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 16:57 Reply with quote Back to top

As readying up often causes controversy at the worst times (and is not an issue 95% of the time), could we somehow have other coaches only able to view our teams as they were prior to the most recently played game? League and site admins would see the current status of the team.

That way, it wouldn't matter who readies their team first, its always hidden until the game actually starts.

(I realize this would be incredibly complex, and is in no way high enough priority for the amount of work required, but I wanted to put the idea down in writing.)
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 17:53 Reply with quote Back to top

As a league option?

Why would this be good?

_________________
Image
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 18:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Because in some cases the person who readies first is at a disadvantage - I could wait until you've readied for our match, then check your skills and TV and decide whether I'm going to Morg you or not. Whereas if I come in blind to the match, some 'sculpting' of the team may be harder to do. It doesn't stop all sorts of undesired behaviour, but I know of a few people enraged by this

_________________
Image
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 18:09 Reply with quote Back to top

right now, if you are scheduled to play another team, then if you wait for your opponent to ready first, you know exactly what they have, and then you can plan your inducements (or their inducements) specifically for your matchup. This particularly comes up during things like majors (or league equivalents) where people want every advantage possible. Things like firing a player with 1 skill, in order to hire a rookie player with no skills and therefore get a wizard, actually happens as a result of this.

As a result, the site currently has a rule that the higher tv team must ready up first. Some leagues have their own specific rule that overrides this, but many default to the site rule.

In turn, this rule leads some teams who have to ready first (whether it is due to the site rule of higher tv, or a league specific variation) to wait until the game is scheduled to be played before readying.

This then means that the second team has to make a choice: start the game on time without fully planning out inducements, or delay the game. Delaying the game is sometimes actually supported, but in turn, that causes other problems, as often (particularly in majors) scheduling can be very difficult in the first place due to time zone conflicts, and so any delays in the game, can risk the game not being played at all.

So, for almost all games, this never matters. But for larger tournaments, on occasion, this does cause significant issue.


My proposed solution above is actually meant to be something that would be used in C division as well as L; with the idea being that it no longer matters who readies first, as neither of you have current information about the other team, aside from what was available previous to the last game plus the match report of the last game, so you can make all your decisions confident that the other coach won't have any more information than you do, regardless of who readies up first.

The league option would be to disable this feature, so that people could always see the current status of teams in that league.

This is also meant to replicate table top leagues, where rosters are typically updated without knowing about the updates other coaches are doing as well (or, if you do know, it's because you all do it at once).
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 18:12 Reply with quote Back to top

most of us learnt it the hard way in LRB4, and the gentleman's agreement on FUMBBL is the biggest team in TV terms readies first.
Also, don't be a banjo and don't drag this for too long. It's like playing the 3:30 turns: Nuffle doesn't approve.

_________________
"la virtù sta nel cielo e nella terra, ma anche nelle nuvole e nelle stelle"

Image
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 18:12 Reply with quote Back to top

its not even a gentleman's agreement anymore, it's actually in the site rules
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 18:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:

So, for almost all games, this never matters. But for larger tournaments, on occasion, this does cause significant issue.


I'm pretty sure I'd turn this off. If it were ever implemented.

It seems to be inconveniencing a lot of people because of just a few.

As league admin, I'd be able to see the teams anyway. Twisted Evil

You'd also have to hide the data from the APIs or people could look it up that way.

It still makes sense to not ready until near game time as your opponent may change.

_________________
Image
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 18:56 Reply with quote Back to top

i completely agree it inconveniences only a few; its just they tend to come up at controversial moments, similar to the 4 minute time out rule - almost no one cares, but it's there for a reason.

but on the flip side, most people also wouldn't actually care about the difference on a team between 1 game and the next - so the change also wouldn't impact 95% of people.
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 19:15
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

It would be an incredible amount of work to lag team pages by one match. Not likely to be something I spend my time on for such a niche thing.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 19:43 Reply with quote Back to top

tis what i figured. thanks for reading!
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 21:21 Reply with quote Back to top

What's the draw back of the smaller team making ready first?

_________________
Image
Join the wait-list. Watch the action. Leave the Empire. Come to Bretonnia!
Rawlf



Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 07, 2022 - 22:41 Reply with quote Back to top

The problem described here is mitigated by the new rules, which allow adding cash to the free inducement TV. Where it used to be a thing to trim your teams TV to give yourself (or deny your opponent) a wizard, you can now just chuck in a few coins of cash for the same effect (resp. your opponent can). So the trimming doesnt work as well as it used to at all anymore.

Moreover, the official tournament rules specify that the higher TV team has to be readied 'within good time for the opponent to complete theirs before the start of the match'. So delaying the readying of your team until the scheduled time is actually breaking tournament rules and can backfire very badly at the coach doing it.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 08, 2022 - 00:22 Reply with quote Back to top

awambawamb wrote:
... on FUMBBL is the biggest team in TV terms readies first.

I think leagues should just adopt this rule, it's the only real way to deal with it.

Rawlf wrote:
The problem described here is mitigated by the new rules....

I don't think it is. It just means you need to take into account their TV and their/your treasury when trimming.

_________________
Better lucky than good
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic