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Poll
Should Halflings only play games when they can Induce?
Yes-the team was designed to play with some inducements
34%
 34%  [ 28 ]
No- They are designed to be a challenge and should select their games the same way any other team would
38%
 38%  [ 31 ]
Halflings make great pies, just remember to remove their clothes first
27%
 27%  [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 81


freak_in_a_frock



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post 22 Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 16:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Whilst spectating an FFB game I started to discuss with a fellow spectator how to build a competetive halfling team. During the discussion it was brought up that halflings should make sure they get inducements every game. They should at least get the Chef, and preferably two stars too (morg and either Willow Bark or Bertha).

I was of the opinion that in an open division (such as ranked or FFB as it is now) this would be borderline cherrypicking. Afterall games should be kept as close in TV as possible. He countered with the fact that Flings are designed to be used with the chef, in the same way that Gobbos are designed to have a few bribes to compete. Therefore it wasn't cherrypicking and could almost be seen as cherrypicking if your opponent played your flings when you couldn't induce.

I then speculated that stunties were only designed like that to help them in a proper League enviroment. This in turn was countered by 'The only edge flings get is the chef + their stars (puggy & deeproot), denying them makes flings unplayable'


This lead to a friendly debate on the rights and wrongs of the issue. So anyway i thought i'd throw it open and see what other peoples' views are. Should flings and Gobbos be expected to play every game with inducements in their favour, or should they mix it up?


Last edited by freak_in_a_frock on Aug 27, 2010 - 16:47; edited 1 time in total
Carnis



Joined: Feb 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 16:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Heh, I was arguing for flings. Just a minor extra detail that was left out. The fling inducements were majorly nerfed during the last versioning of LRB6 (the one we are playing now). Apparently a fling team won one tournament somewhere by inducing puggy, deeproot & the chef (for 160k+250k+50). Now puggy's price is unchanged, deeproot is up by 50k to 300k and chef is up by 50k to 100k.

The point is, fling are a fun team, borderline playable. Their only chance to have a competetive game is by playing around with the inducements. Freak_in_a_frock said in his view the flings would be cherrying, if they chose to say take a team that is 260k-400k their overdog to get the 2 inducements they need (Puggy or Deeproot+Chef). 400k in inducements can mean 20 skills, that should count for something, right? ;P

I really don't see the point of writing rules for fling inducements if they are only meant to be used in closed leagues.
freak_in_a_frock



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 16:46 Reply with quote Back to top

ok poll changed for fairer wording
Lakrillo



Joined: Sep 12, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 16:58 Reply with quote Back to top

The thing with flings is that they have a hard time gaining a lot of TV as their players are so cheap and tend to get hurt pretty easily. A halfling team that plays against a 2 mil team will always be an underdog in teamvalue, there are just not enough spots on the roster to grow that big.

But yes, only playing games where you have a fixed amount of inducements, is picking your games. On the other hand, playing against halflings is picking an easy game to.
In an environment where you are allowed to select your games, every game you play are picked. It is all good until someone starts to exploit the other coaches knowledge of the powerlevel of the teams that play by playing a game where you have very high chances of success. No game with halflings will ever be a walk in the park, no matter if you have some good inducements, you are just making the game more interesting for all parts than a game with no inducements against tackle+MB orcs of the same TV.
zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 17:12 Reply with quote Back to top

i guess now stunties are much more resistant now that the a 9 in cas roll doesn't kill. That'll make it fairly easier to get a decently high TV. As always, there are teams that do better in different TV range. Halfos and Gobos are low TV teams.

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uzkulak



Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 17:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Gobbos can compete normally, but the 'flings do need inducements to be competitive. And remember to do that they have to essentially be playing a much better team with decent skills and some rr in order to get the inducements. In a rookie v rookie game they can perhaps get away without them, but as the other teams grow they have to induce. In lrb4 flings took a chef before every game if they could, its the same difference here, just a new system.

It could also be argued that the game was designed to be played with special play cards - something that would probably help 'flings more than most as well.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 17:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I voted no although i'm not comfortable about the given options... Of course flings should choose their opponents like any other team.
They are supposed to be a challenge but that doesn't mean that you have to take on any opponent. I think we have a long tradition in ranked to be very choosy about opponents accordidng to our preferences. I think halflings have the advantage to be a popular team to play against what allows them to choose their opponents mostly. If you feel like it will be good for you to challenge much tougher teams... well go ahead....

but i think another question is raised here aswelll.... the one about the importance of indudcements...
I think those are a powerfull weapon but it is not like that last resort option that is the only advantage flings can use to win a game like you suggest it...
i think (out of experience) that flings are perfectly capable of winning without inducements...

for that reason i voted "no" since while i agree it is fine to "pick" opponents flings aren't in any way special.

I think picking on harder teams is usually not that benefitial... and...
well not implemented in the client but according to the rules theire is actually the option for a team to transfer money from the treasury into a cashpool to buy stuff before the game (was at least like that in lrb5)
Shraaaag



Joined: Feb 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 17:43 Reply with quote Back to top

uzkulak wrote:
Gobbos can compete normally, but the 'flings do need inducements to be competitive.


With the new gobbo positionals, they kinda need to buy a bribe or two, or see players get banned after each drive. Unless you play with only trolls, goblins and pogos.

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f_alk



Joined: Sep 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 18:22 Reply with quote Back to top

In a league environment, getting inducements will happen due to the higher loss ratio (having low AV and no normal access to G), and thus the slower advancement in TV.
As LRB6 was designed for such an environment, I would think that then Gobbos and Halflings are designed to benefit slightly more from inducements than other teams (with their discounts).

So, I think the poll is badly worded:
"Should Halflings only play games when they can Induce?"
- only? No.
- usually? Yes.

So, essenatially I would say:
- the team was designed to play with some inducements
- They are designed to be a challenge and should select their games the same way any other team would.
Calthor



Joined: Jan 24, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 18:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Voted 'no', but my opinion is, more precisely, exactly what f_alk just said much better than I could.
SillySod



Joined: Oct 10, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 19:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Halflings dont necessarily need inducements. Also notice that many halfling teams are going to have a TV below 100... playing with inducements is almost cetainly going to be less picky than playing rookie and beat up teams.

The question of picking is a bit worthless IMO. Its not like any game is going to be easy. It certainly wont be like the picking that goes on at the moment.

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 19:40 Reply with quote Back to top

I find it a bit sad we're already looking for ways that people will pick and readying to point the finger before we're even out of beta; although I appreciate the conversation (not being critical), and I suppose it's a new and interesting slant.

Personally, I think people will try to maximise or tweak any system to help them win, that's human nature, and it's nothing new to what we saw previously or will see in the future. I think Inducements lend themselves to this to the savvy coach. I don't think it will be as much of an issue as it can be now if you go out to play your BB that way. I don't think Stunty teams need Inducements to compete. I do think they can use them to their advantage in the same way as other teams, perhaps more so in some cases in the same way we see low TR DP Flings have field days in LRB4 sometimes. It's about assessing what's fair. I certainly don't agree with the notion you need Inducements or it's no game for the shorties - whiffs of a bad experience or two to me.

But to be honest, it's the same as always. If you choose to make your playing experience 'unfair' in any way, picking, accepting an unfair challenge, or even letting a bot do the job for you when you can do better yourself (before On1 wakes up Razz), your free time, your fun, your lookout.

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freak_in_a_frock



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 19:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo, it wasn't so much about the picking, it was more about whether stunty teams were designed with the idea that they should always take inducements. I think maybe the poll isn't worded to that effect, but it was the main gist of the conversation. Are Halflings specfically designed to always be using inducements, or were they meant to be a challenge and play their games at equal TV? And to be fair to Carnis he was describing a friends TT team that did well by getting inducements every game, and was relating that into Fumbbl and how a halfling team should be managed. We then discussed whether this is an accepted approach to using a halfling team in the new division.
nin



Joined: May 27, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 20:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Now that the On1 issue has benn raised by Mr Purplegoo... I'm not very concerned with the picking thing. But I have a somewhat "academic" concern with such things as TS and BBox play with flings.

As it's now, without TS, scheduler would pair flings with even TV teams, so no inducements for them.
And adding a TS value, like the one we have, pairing them with even TS teams would likely mean the opponent gets inducements.
...
Now, rats in the Box is easy and will be easier imho, but flings... they look bad and I don't see any way to solve that without breacking another thing (don't even know if there is any need to solve this fling concern)
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2010 - 20:10 Reply with quote Back to top

freak_in_a_frock wrote:
Purplegoo, it wasn't so much about the picking, it was more about whether stunty teams were designed with the idea that they should always take inducements. I think maybe the poll isn't worded to that effect, but it was the main gist of the conversation. Are Halflings specfically designed to always be using inducements, or were they meant to be a challenge and play their games at equal TV? And to be fair to Carnis he was describing a friends TT team that did well by getting inducements every game, and was relating that into Fumbbl and how a halfling team should be managed. We then discussed whether this is an accepted approach to using a halfling team in the new division.


So far as I'm aware, the rules were written for 7-10 match long leagues. So I guess Stunties are designed to start off 'fair' (or at even TV), get smashed and then Induce to hang on in there.

On the basis the rules weren't written for open leagues this time (unlike LRB4 which I believe was, or said it was in the document), I think the argument is moot. It's especially moot here where we'll get rules breaking 100 game teams, or whatever. If and when they break Inducements, that won't be the fault of the rules.*

They're competitive at level TV. Until you get out of their low TV comfort zone. Inverse Undead, I guess. After that, if you wish to manage your team such that you stick at low TV and take advantage of Inducements every game, I guess that's your look out. That's never the design though.

They are tier three though. So they are designed to not win often!

*Edit: There was that project not so long ago to come up with a FUMBBL modified ruleset. Although we'd NEVER agree between us, and they'd NEVER get finished; once we've played a few hundred thousand games under Inducements, we'd actually come up (in the ideal World of not realness) with a much better ruleset for the environment we inhabit. That's not me bigging FUMBBL up; I think that's just common sense. How can the rules people write things that work for 7-10 game closed leagues and infinite game open leagues? They can't. Then, we could answer the question of what to do with Stunties and their Inducements! Smile

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