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Poll
Is CLAWPOMB really a problem?
Yes, absolutley
55%
 55%  [ 464 ]
No, Chaos Dwarfs Disagree
20%
 20%  [ 174 ]
Still Haven't Decided
8%
 8%  [ 75 ]
Pie!
15%
 15%  [ 127 ]
Total Votes : 840


Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 20:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:

No, x number of games gives x value for the redraft, which means you can calculate the average TV (immediately after redraft), which gives kind of a soft cap on where your team will end up.


Ah sorry I thought he meant what's the average tv a team can get up to after 20 or 30 matches, not what will tv look like after the redraft.

Edit: stupid phone auto correct

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Last edited by Garion on Oct 20, 2019 - 20:10; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 20:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, I meant the average TV immediately after the redraft, with 20 games season and 30 game season.
Between 1400-1500 TV Question
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 20:09 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
In a competitive environment you can't avoid unwanted opponents.
If people don't activate when some coaches are online, just hide the online status of the coaches.
That way you can't know whether a X coach is online or offline.


So you'd rather people avoided the division entirely and it have fewer coaches than allow people to blacklist 1 coach that they find deeply unpleasant? Blacklisting 1 or even 2 coaches max would not effect the divisions competativeness. It might make people consider their actions however if certain coaches never got games.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 20:16 Reply with quote Back to top

So, with 20 games, we can probably assume somewhere around a combined Rd+case of 5 per game, for extreme teams (that either win a lot or CAS a lot).

That means ~35k per game. But many teams will only get 3 per game combined of cas +TD.

So 25k per game for the low end.
That gives us a range from 1500tv - 1700tv + treasury at the end of the season. The most fragile teams will probably not have a lot at the end, say 50k. The most resilient teams will have a full 200k bank (given spiralling expenses rule).

So 20 games results in teams redrafting with 1550tv - 1900tv.

30 games results in an extra 250 for the low end (1800tv) and 350 at the high end (2250tv).

30 games means fragile teams that aren't very successful can reasonably redraft legends for a season or two for their team, and would probably never have a problem redrafting the rest of their team.

It would mean the most resilient teams probably can carry legends for a few seasons, but can't live with 15+ players because they simply have too many skills.

20 games means neither category can maintain legends without harsh decisions. But resilient teams are probably firing skilled players every redraft, while fragile teams are probably being forced to retire injuries, which probably isn't a bad thing.


The fact that, for a successful team, as much as 10 skills comes from CAS caused during the season, seems really bad. The team's that survive the longest will be the most brutal, yet aiming for wins, teams around. I'd guess at skaven - easy to get multiple clawmb, enough natural attrition to not end up with too many skilled players when redraft decisions come around, dirty player on linos for more cas, and the ability to get very high scores.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 20:22 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think that currently the Black Box division is unpopular.
Without the CRP Cpomb spam silliness and the Black Box Trophy there are more coaches playing in it, and new PO should not drive people away.
Also, being unable to avoid coaches is part of the appeal of the division.
I found that being unable to avoid coaches helped me greatly to improve.
When you are forced to play any opponent out of your comfort zone you get better.
So, I think that coaches must learn to face any opponent, pleasant, unpleasant, skilled or bad.

Anyway, after reading Nelphine's post, I guess that 20 games season is better than 30.


Last edited by MattDakka on Oct 21, 2019 - 13:56; edited 1 time in total
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 20:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:

I don't like the idea, because I want Shindahl, and to heck with anything else *shrug*.

(I also realize that's a terrible viewpoint, but I want to allow ridiculous legends, like stunties without block who regularly face mighty blow/tackle/po players; how do I design a system like that, which also limits the single clawmbtackle legend on a low tv team AND reins in 5+ legends on a high tv team? I don't know the answer to that, but I want to find one.)


I dont't think its a terrible viewpoint, just your opinion. just as I disagree with Matt about Blacklists, your opnions are your opinions and thats all good Smile

However you would still be able to have legends etc... In fact i think seasons would do exactly what you desire.

AS you say -

Nelphine wrote:

So 20 games results in teams redrafting with 1550tv - 1900tv.
games results in an extra 250 for the low end (1800tv) and 350 at the high end (2250tv).


Maybe 30 games would be more to your taste, but either way you would be able to keep your cpomb monster or ag5 blodge elf etc... you could still buy them during the re-draft, and it would limit the 5+ legends teams.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 21:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
In a competitive environment you can't avoid unwanted opponents.
If people don't activate when some coaches are online, just hide the online status of the coaches.
That way you can't know whether a X coach is online or offline.


So you'd rather people avoided the division entirely and it have fewer coaches than allow people to blacklist 1 coach that they find deeply unpleasant? Blacklisting 1 or even 2 coaches max would not effect the divisions competativeness. It might make people consider their actions however if certain coaches never got games.


This would result in fewer draws.

Certain good coaches would get frozen out purely because they were good. Though, forum persona might not help. Wink

It would require dev effort.

You can pick your opponents in Ranked & League. I doubt that Christer will go for this.

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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 21:25
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
Garion wrote:
As someone that's never been a fan of super high TV sillyness Seasons is the answer and will make PO pretty much worthless, however I know some people like high TV sillyness, so why not have a competative division called Blackbox, with seasons, and ranked can ignore seasons entirely and be the division for people that want to build ridiculously bloaty teams.
This!

this.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 21:36 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Garion wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
In a competitive environment you can't avoid unwanted opponents.
If people don't activate when some coaches are online, just hide the online status of the coaches.
That way you can't know whether a X coach is online or offline.


So you'd rather people avoided the division entirely and it have fewer coaches than allow people to blacklist 1 coach that they find deeply unpleasant? Blacklisting 1 or even 2 coaches max would not effect the divisions competativeness. It might make people consider their actions however if certain coaches never got games.


This would result in fewer draws.

Certain good coaches would get frozen out purely because they were good. Though, forum persona might not help. Wink

It would require dev effort.

You can pick your opponents in Ranked & League. I doubt that Christer will go for this.


I don't think good coaches would be frozen out tbh, 1 or 2 max isnt enough blacklist slots to do so. I don't think christer would go for it either. Though I really dont see any downside to having 1 or 2 people you can blacklist, with a 30 day cooling off period in which you can't add a different name. As I say people already avoid people in blackbox and some people are quite vocal about it too. I personally see nothing but benefit here. If people have a truly awful experience against certain people they shouldnt have to live with that imo.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 21:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
What is the deal with people who dont even play Box having ideas about Box. Go crap in your own off-brand sandbox. Wink


I would only play box if I could blacklist a coach. Wink


And I would only live in Vienna if it wasn't Vienna, so here we are.
Roto



Joined: Oct 12, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 21:46 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
bghandras wrote:
Garion wrote:
As someone that's never been a fan of super high TV sillyness Seasons is the answer and will make PO pretty much worthless, however I know some people like high TV sillyness, so why not have a competative division called Blackbox, with seasons, and ranked can ignore seasons entirely and be the division for people that want to build ridiculously bloaty teams.
This!

this.


For me it's the exact opposite. I'm not a huge fan of high TV silliness either, but one of the big things that I love about BB is that feeling of attachment and growth I feel towards a team. Seasons threatens that immensely for me. The idea that I could lose my team through no fault of my own.. Well, that's a recipe for me to abandon anything that uses it right there.

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awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 21:47 Reply with quote Back to top

On FUMBBL we got fancy little boxes where troublesome coaches aren't welcome, they are called Leagues.
If more people would have some form of stronger commitment, mostly being online at the same time in scheduled days, one wouldn't have to wait 5, 6 days between rounds.
Hell, one could even start such a League, let's call it... a Box League with 2 days rounds. no show means point down, present coach would have to demonstrate his present with a couple of PM since date and time would be there to testify commitment.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 22:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
Nelphine wrote:

I don't like the idea, because I want Shindahl, and to heck with anything else *shrug*.

(I also realize that's a terrible viewpoint, but I want to allow ridiculous legends, like stunties without block who regularly face mighty blow/tackle/po players; how do I design a system like that, which also limits the single clawmbtackle legend on a low tv team AND reins in 5+ legends on a high tv team? I don't know the answer to that, but I want to find one.)


I dont't think its a terrible viewpoint, just your opinion. just as I disagree with Matt about Blacklists, your opnions are your opinions and thats all good Smile

However you would still be able to have legends etc... In fact i think seasons would do exactly what you desire.

AS you say -

Nelphine wrote:

So 20 games results in teams redrafting with 1550tv - 1900tv.
games results in an extra 250 for the low end (1800tv) and 350 at the high end (2250tv).


Maybe 30 games would be more to your taste, but either way you would be able to keep your cpomb monster or ag5 blodge elf etc... you could still buy them during the re-draft, and it would limit the 5+ legends teams.


Unfortunately, Shindahl is a skink who's played over 130 games. He would cost me 6+ skills just to keep him. And Lizardmen NEED skilled Saurus. And the longer he lives, the more skills I would need to get rid of each time I redraft. I don't WANT to play a (mostly) rookie team. I want to play teams full of Stars. So that would leave me with an unplayable dilemma - fire Shindahl, or fire skilled Sauri.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 22:06 Reply with quote Back to top

As an exercise what would you do if you HAD to redraft with that team now. Based on your last 20 or 30 games ? What would that look like?

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Oct 20, 2019 - 22:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Roto wrote:
PurpleChest wrote:
bghandras wrote:
Garion wrote:
As someone that's never been a fan of super high TV sillyness Seasons is the answer and will make PO pretty much worthless, however I know some people like high TV sillyness, so why not have a competative division called Blackbox, with seasons, and ranked can ignore seasons entirely and be the division for people that want to build ridiculously bloaty teams.
This!

this.


For me it's the exact opposite. I'm not a huge fan of high TV silliness either, but one of the big things that I love about BB is that feeling of attachment and growth I feel towards a team. Seasons threatens that immensely for me. The idea that I could lose my team through no fault of my own.. Well, that's a recipe for me to abandon anything that uses it right there.


Right? I mean, I have a flagship team with almost 600 games that I love to just build and doink around with and see how wild it gets and learn things from. I have ways to do that in League but it's not the same storied history and waves of growth and the experimental sandbox I can observe and interact with.
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