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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2017 - 23:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Quick Terminological Note: for notating the width of the pitch, I designate each column (row on the FUMBBL pitch, which is sideways from this perspective) from L7 to R7, with 0 in the center. The Wide Zone Marker is between columns 3 and 4 on either side.

Generally, most opponents set up one of four three-man defensive lines: 101, 303, 202, and 123/321.

Code:

101 line
- - - -|- - X X X - -|- - - -

202 line
- - - -|- X - X - X -|- - - -

303 line
- - - -|X - - X - - X|- - - -

321 line
- - - -|X X X - - - -|- - - -


I'm going to show you how to punish your opponent for playing a 303 line, using one player with Frenzy.

So the enemy sets up a 303 "boat" or "rule of 5" defense.
Code:
- - - -|X - - X - - X|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|X - - X - - X|- - - -
- - - -|- X X X X X -|- - - -


You've seen that lots of times, right? Nice and conservative, gives you some control on both sides of the pitch, makes the opponent commit a lot of men to the line. Common defense, and not a bad one.

So you set up like this: #7 is your Frenzy player. It helps if #1, #3, #5, and/or #9 is ST4, so you can blitz without an assist, 'cuz this tactic eats manpower. Mighty Blow on #2 and #4 is nice to have too. But that's all not necessary. Just the one Frenzy and equal ST on the line.
Code:
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - 9 -
- - 1 2|3 - 4 5 - 6 7|- 8 - -
- - - -|X - - X - - X|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|X - - X - - X|- - - -
- - - -|- X X X X X -|- - - -

This leaves you with 2 players to play the ball (not pictured). If your opponent has no Frenzy, you can move #1 one square outside (to the offense's right, the reader's left on the diagram).

First, block with #2 and #4, going for pow like normal. If #2 pushes, he follows so #3 gets a bite at the apple (unless #3 is ST4 or #4 has Guard). If #4 pushes, ditto, with #5 getting the follow-up block. #2 blocks should do it. If not, c'est la vie, just push 'em away. Likewise if the ball is on the reader's left (offense's right), you might take a push and push away so #3 and/or #5 can reposition. But usually go for the second block.

You might end up with something like this:
Code:
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - 9 -
- - 1 -|3 - - 5 - 6 7|- 8 - -
- - - -|2 X - 4 X - X|- - - -

or like this, if your opening blocks push:
Code:
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - 9 -
- - 1 -|- - - - - 6 7|- 8 - -
- - - -|2 3 - 4 5 - X|- - - -
- - - -|- X - - X - -|- - - -


Then, block with #6, using #7's assist. Push sideways and don't follow. If you get a pow so be it, take it or don't. Pushes are at least as good, though, as they let you put your plan into action.

If you push with #6, block with #7, taking pushes over pows if you feel nasty. Frenzy block him laterally, then upfield with the second block (into your half).

#1 can move at any time from here out, either blitzing the backside (the reader's left) or moving to cover #6. Likewise, you can move one guy up from the backfield to cover #6, and prevent a hole from opening. Or he can stay where he is to cover the back side of the play.

From here, if #10 (let's call him 0) moves up and #1 doesn't move, the LOS looks like this.
Code:
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - 9 -
- - 1 -|3 - - 5 - 6 -|- 8 X -
- - - -|2 X - 4 X - 0|- 7 - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -


#8 then blocks, aiming for the push, pushing him so that #9 can make the surf. Follow if #9 needs the assist.

I've done this a few times successfully, and I don't play a lot of Frenzy. Here are two that I could easily find. When it "doesn't work" it still levels the defensive line and presents a solid line of scrimmage.

Humans vs Amazons
Orcs vs Pro Elves.

Oh, and don't get cute. If you have to RR, take the Pow.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi


Last edited by JackassRampant on Jan 28, 2017 - 18:47; edited 4 times in total
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2017 - 23:32 Reply with quote Back to top

This is a fun option, I've never really considered it. How often have you tried this, unsuccessfully, and been out of position because of it?
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2017 - 23:34 Reply with quote Back to top

That's the beauty. of it: even if it fails, it doesn't put you out of position. I mean, if you skull out on the offensive line you're hosed anyway, but it's pretty strong against Blitz. Perfect D lets them avoid the surf, but they're still facing a strong LOS. At almost any point you can decide you've had enough and take the pow, or push them away and not follow (bar the Frenzy bit).

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi


Last edited by JackassRampant on Jan 27, 2017 - 23:36; edited 1 time in total
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2017 - 23:36 Reply with quote Back to top

If the opponent has frenzy I tend to set up to avoid this. Sorry Smile
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2017 - 23:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, a 101 line makes it much harder to pull off. But then you make your opponent go for the 101 line, rather than the 303 that he might have preferred.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2017 - 23:48 Reply with quote Back to top

The odds of rolling pushes are lower than we may presume.

If you play against Kryten, you can safely presume a surf will happen anyway.

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2017 - 23:53 Reply with quote Back to top

If you want a push, it's 5/9 on two dice, or 3/4 if the defender has Dodge (cough, Amazons). Your odds of getting a pow/skull or something aren't too bad, and more often than not the end result of this offense is 3 knockdowns, with the later-acting players in position to either act or end turn. Your odds of skulling out are pretty low if you don't get greedy, though you might spend a RR.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2017 - 00:01 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
If you want a push, it's 5/9 on two dice


Make that five pushes. Nothing else matters.

Also note that your formation could be vulnerable to the Kick skill, Perfect Defense and Blitz!

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2017 - 00:09 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
JackassRampant wrote:
If you want a push, it's 5/9 on two dice


Make that five pushes. Nothing else matters.
Nonsense. For one thing, a pow on the last block is a surf. 3 pushes and a pow pins the defender along the sideline. 0-2 pushes and a pow is still a pow.

Quote:
Also note that your formation could be vulnerable to the Kick skill, Perfect Defense and Blitz!
Yes, sort of. A bad lie on the ball could force you to cover with #1 instead of blitzing. A PD can screw up the surf, but you still get your 3 good hits, it's not like any part of the pitch is uncovered. A Blitz! could screw up the surf, but your players are in good position to cope with it if it happens. A bad lie and a Blitz! against Wood Elves or Skaven and you're hosed, but what else is new?

For this reason I like to make #10 a good blitzer type, maybe not my main hitter but someone I know can knock stuff down if he has to, like a Block/Tackle player or something.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2017 - 00:26 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Nonsense. For one thing, a pow on the last block is a surf. 3 pushes and a pow pins the defender along the sideline. 0-2 pushes and a pow is still a pow.


Fair enough.

Four pushes:

block 2D (2 success) - block 2D (2 success) - block 2D (2 success) - block 2D (2 success)
9.526 %
26.461 %

Four pushes and a surf:

block 2D (2 success) - block 2D (2 success) - block 2D (2 success) - block 2D (2 success) - block 2D (4 success)
8.468 %
24.462 %

So you'll surf a guy every two games if you're ready to burn a RR while doing so.

Quote:
A bad lie and a Blitz! against Wood Elves or Skaven and you're hosed, but what else is new?


While overcommitting on the LOS implies risks is nothing new, these risks need to be taken into account against the benefit of surfing a guy every two games. These risks aren't just to lose the ball, but to get your Frenzy guy getting hit. What are the odds of a PD or a Blitz!?

There is also the need to take into consideration the kind of race that will use that tactic. As a Dark Elf coach, I'd consider it less risky than as a Dorf coach. As your Zon example shows, we also need to take the defensive race into account.

Look. I'm not saying it's a bad tactic. The threat of being surfed while on the dotted lines (I wish we'd have a term for that crucial place on the field) is worth your elegant reminder. I'm just saying that the benefits should be curbed by its potential risks, and to know these we need to look at the situation with all the objectivity we can muster.

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2017 - 00:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Fun topic. Personally, I don't like setting up with the 303 line,not just for frenzy,but it makes it far too easy to block each of my LoS victims multiple times and gifts 3 dice blocks to St5 guys.

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I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.

Oscar Wilde
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2017 - 00:46 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
The threat of being surfed while on the dotted lines (I wish we'd have a term for that crucial place on the field) is worth your elegant reminder. I'm just saying that the benefits should be curbed by its potential risks, and to know these we need to look at the situation with all the objectivity we can muster.
Yah.

You mean "just inside the wide zone marker" or the 3 column?

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2017 - 00:59 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
You mean "just inside the wide zone marker" or the 3 column?


The former, i.e the dividing line between the wide zones and the main field. So I suppose we can include the columns inside and outside. The reason why these spots are so important is because controlling the dotted lines allows a team to pivot into a side cage.

Perhaps I should refer to it as the pivot.

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2017 - 01:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, I call that the 3 and 4 columns. 3 is just inside, 4 just outside. The "pivot" columns as a descriptive term makes sense. A lot hangs on those Wide Zone markers.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi
ben_awesome



Joined: May 11, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2017 - 01:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
Fun topic. Personally, I don't like setting up with the 303 line,not just for frenzy,but it makes it far too easy to block each of my LoS victims multiple times and gifts 3 dice blocks to St5 guys.


So what setup is preferred? Assuming st3 race vs. A race with guard and no skills on your defensive los, both the the 111 and 1-1-1 give away easy 3d blocks to an opponent with guard.
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