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Poll
Four blitzers or 3 & a Witch Elf?
Blitzers
53%
 53%  [ 58 ]
Witch Elf
46%
 46%  [ 51 ]
Total Votes : 109


delusional



Joined: Jan 18, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 07:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally, I think you should go witch elf.

Not for Frenzy, but for Dodge.

You want to be doing 2db blocks to get ahead of the tackle count. Now all your players have +ag, but if they roll a 1 you either have to spend a reroll or end your turn.

By the witch elf having dodge, you now have a player who you can move to get a 2db block. The other coach will really have to mark her with a tackle player (unlikely in a new team), foul her which may send a player to the bin OR have 2 players to keep her down.

The opposition coach may mark her, so be it. You will get the better numbers.
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 09:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I think we've strayed a bit from the OP's question...

In a short season like yours, I would probably go for blitzers/witch as core skills are likely to get you further and frenzy can be a great threat to your opponent near the sidelines.

As far as the runner goes, I've found a use for him.
Wuhan



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 09:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Don't question it. Just do it.

8 linos = 560k
2 assassins = 180k
1 witch =110k
2RR =100k
1 apoth = 50k
0FF = 0k
total =1000k
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 11:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Runner is trash because of the -AV
 
“I've won games with a runner!”
Yea... but that doesn’t prove they’re good
 
DE play a mix of running and bash, they’re quite sturdy with AV8 everywhere, especially compared to other agi4 teams
 
Any time you drop av8 down to av7 you create a weakness in your team, if that player falls it weakens the rest of your players by being outnumbered
You need a damn good reason to drop the AV. Witch elves are good enough to justify it, as frenzy shapes the whole game. Dump Off does not.
 
Also:
-Dump Off is only any use when runner has the ball, and there’s an ally in range. Which is easily less than half the game, on average
The rest of the game, it’s useless and he's a liability.
 
-Runner means you have a primary ball carrier, without the runner you have more flexibility.
(If you don’t use the runner to carry, fire him)
 
-SPP on blitzers is amazing, far far better than SPP on runners
Without the runner, you get more SPP on blitzers & witches
 
 
Starting roster for me is 4 blitzers 7 linemen 2 RR (edit: this is same as JackassRampant said on page 1)
Then 1 RR, apoth, 1 witch elf - in some order.. can probably get this within 8 games

Start with 4 blitzers instead of 3 plus witch because you've only got 2 RR with either option, so you want maximum Block


Last edited by Sp00keh on Aug 25, 2017 - 12:02; edited 1 time in total
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 11:57 Reply with quote Back to top

If you buy a witch later in the season, it's fairly easy to feed her some safe blocks, surfs, and a couple of touchdowns to get the first skill. Possibly during her first game

Then once she has blodge she's basically as durable as she's going to get... So don't worry about it
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 14:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Some coaches start with the Runner to get sooner the third RR by taking Leader on him.

- 4 Blitzers
- 1 Runner
- 6 Linos
- 2 RRs
Dominik



Joined: Oct 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 14:38 Reply with quote Back to top

4 Blitzer is better than 3 Blitzer and a Witch. Therefore 4 Blitzer and a Runner is better than 3 Blitzer and a Witch.
the_Sage



Joined: Jan 13, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 14:47 Reply with quote Back to top

I really like the witch. Against bad opponents, the surfs are amazing value, and against good opponents, limiting their positioning to prevent surfs is also really good value (and in that case, you won't even have to blitz with her). That extra space on the sideline helps you move on offense, and helps you constrain your opponents on defense.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 16:51 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Some coaches start with the Runner to get sooner the third RR by taking Leader on him.

- 4 Blitzers
- 1 Runner
- 6 Linos
- 2 RRs


That's even more insane.

Reason #1, Elfs have 50k rerolls, there is no meaningful TV gain in using leader.*

Reason #2, Taking leader on a player with no other (useful) skills means he is even weaker on offense and defense then he already was for a longer period of time.**

Reason #3, Runners are trash.***

*I know your point was to get the 3rd reroll more quickly, but DE have no real use for cash other than to get that 3rd reroll or to add the 4th blitzer or Witch. That should happen by game 5 with any luck. Also, if you simply skill your blitzers/witch to blodge them up asap you don't really need that 3rd reroll that badly, and sitting at a lower TV with blodge players confers a fairly significant advantage in R/B type leagues.

**If you defer leader to 2nd or 3rd skill you are now playing that many more games to where you can probably just buy the 3rd rr before you skill that player anyway.

***Is clear to anyone really, more naked AV7 on your team which suffers more to attrition than other elfs is just a bad idea all around. You have 4-6 other MA7 players at your disposal (depending on your build through early development), that additional MA7 does very little for you on offense and becomes a large liability on defense.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 17:16 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:

Reason #1, Elfs have 50k rerolls, there is no meaningful TV gain in using leader.*

The problem is they have to buy the Apothecary first, so generally speaking the first winnings are spent on him. It's not for minmaxing, but to have the 3rd rr and positionals sooner.
On a developed team I would not take Leader as first skill on a Runner.
licker wrote:
Reason #2, Taking leader on a player with no other (useful) skills means he is even weaker on offense and defense then he already was for a longer period of time.**

His duty is Leader caddy and ball carrier.
At low TV he should not be hit during offence and on defence he sits behind the frontline of AV 8 teammates.
Also, at low TV Mighty Blow is not so common, so he should survive even if blocked 1 or 2 times.

licker wrote:
Reason #3, Runners are trash.***

Never said they are awesome, but they are not totally useless either.
Assassins are the only trash players in my opinion.

licker wrote:
*I know your point was to get the 3rd reroll more quickly, but DE have no real use for cash other than to get that 3rd reroll or to add the 4th blitzer or Witch. That should happen by game 5 with any luck.

If DE don't have to spend 100k to buy a rr then they will be able to add the positional sooner.
Not great luck involved, considering that now MVP can be targeted and that you should score 1 TD per game with the Runner. Theorically you could take Leader after the first game, this way the winnings are used to buy the Apothecary, that may save a positional from a perm injury, helping the team in the early stages.

licker wrote:
Also, if you simply skill your blitzers/witch to blodge them up asap you don't really need that 3rd reroll that badly, and sitting at a lower TV with blodge players confers a fairly significant advantage in R/B type leagues.

Unless you meet Dwarfs or Chaos Dwarfs and generally speaking a rr is more versatile.
You can use a rr for a pick up, pass, catch, GFI, block, dodge, while Dodge skill, although can be used multiple times, is used only to dodge and when being blocked.

licker wrote:

**If you defer leader to 2nd or 3rd skill you are now playing that many more games to where you can probably just buy the 3rd rr before you skill that player anyway.

Leader is taken as first skill, of course.
licker wrote:

***Is clear to anyone really, more naked AV7 on your team which suffers more to attrition than other elfs is just a bad idea all around.

I think that using a positional like a Blitzer or a Witch Elf as ball carrier may have drawbacks when you could have a Runner carrying the ball and having the freedom of failure that not carrying the ball allows.

licker wrote:
You have 4-6 other MA7 players at your disposal (depending on your build through early development), that additional MA7 does very little for you on offense and becomes a large liability on defense.

If I start with a Runner I buy 4 Blitzers to have more AV 8 on the pitch.
One player with AV 7 honestly doesn't make that difference if you protect him a bit (not so hard at low TV).


For sure, in NAF style tournaments Runners have a use.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 18:01 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

One player with AV 7 honestly doesn't make that difference if you protect him a bit (not so hard at low TV).


This is simply incorrect.

Ask the orcs about their thrower.

You are adding a clear defect to your ability to play defense for a meaningless boost in your ability to play offense.

When you have 11 you may have the luxury of keeping him 'safe'. Once you start taking attrition you lose that luxury quickly, and you now are putting a naked AV7 player out there to simply continue the attrition loses.

Or you are playing hide and seek on defense and not actually contesting the opponents drive.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 18:24 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
MattDakka wrote:



This is simply incorrect.

Ask the orcs about their thrower.

The orc thrower is a different beast, he doesn't add speed to the team.
He's mainly taken for Leader access and Sure Hands.

licker wrote:
You are adding a clear defect to your ability to play defense for a meaningless boost in your ability to play offense.

An extra player with MA 7 on the slowest elven team is nice to have on offence, but anyway, the Runner is there to provide the 3rd rr in game 2 or 3.
You keep on considering only the AV 7 as if it were the only variable in a game, having an extra rr and MA 7 ball carrier is useful as well.
Vs Wood Elves with a Strip Ball Wardancer Dump Off is suddenly an asset during the offence, as the access to Pass skill when you are playing at high TV vs bash team.

At low TV DE can protect the Runner, unless they suffer lot of casualties.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 18:34 Reply with quote Back to top

The AV7 is the MOST IMPORTANT consideration because the other aspects the runner brings are basically useless.

You keep on saying that you can protect him. But you ignore the positional cost of having to protect ANOTHER player. Because the way you are building him he will contribute nothing to your defense (and if you gave him leader then you have to play him). So you already have to 'protect' your best blitzer(s)/witch(s) and now you also have to protect a completely useless player.

Dump off is basically worthless 90% of the time, and you have 4-6 other MA7 players available to you to carry the ball with IF you insist on carrying with MA7. That's not even always necessary.

But to take the cake, you now want to build him as an actual passer too.

That's some big time derp man, big time.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 18:55 Reply with quote Back to top

one of you make a runnerless team, the other a runner team.

join E.L.F. and play 5 seasons.

coach that racks up the most points in 5 elf seasons is the coach that's right.

agreed?

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 25, 2017 - 19:04 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
The AV7 is the MOST IMPORTANT consideration because the other aspects the runner brings are basically useless.

You keep on saying that you can protect him. But you ignore the positional cost of having to protect ANOTHER player. Because the way you are building him he will contribute nothing to your defense (and if you gave him leader then you have to play him). So you already have to 'protect' your best blitzer(s)/witch(s) and now you also have to protect a completely useless player.

Dump off is basically worthless 90% of the time, and you have 4-6 other MA7 players available to you to carry the ball with IF you insist on carrying with MA7. That's not even always necessary.

But to take the cake, you now want to build him as an actual passer too.

That's some big time derp man, big time.

For you having AV 7 is bad, for me having MA 6 is bad on an already slow team.
For you protecting him is a great positional cost, for me it's not, unless my team is terribly outnumbered, something that at TV 1000 should not happen often, and if it happens, I don't think having a lino with AV 8 instead of a Runner will change the game anyway.
On the other hand, if I should lose a player during the first half and I were receiving on the 2nd half, that extra MA 7 is great, considering that if I'm carrying with a MA 6 AV 8 lino I'm not going to let him be blitzed (therefore AV 8 is a non-factor in this case, unlike MA 7), and I can use my positionals with Block and Frenzy on the frontline.
I get that you don't like the Runner, and I'm not suggesting that the Runner is absolutely necessary, but on the other hand I don't think he has no uses at all.
Just for the Leader he's worth to be taken in the early stages as Leader caddy (because you can have your beloved positionals and 3rd rr sooner) and at high TV having a passer may be useful (without Leader, only Sure Hands, Pass, Dodge) or with just Blodge Side Step, pure Runner.
I'm not a fan of passing game, so don't get me wrong, but DE are the slowest elven team and they may struggle to score when outnumbered, also, if they have to score in 2 turns, a reliable passer with Sure Hands greatly increases their chances.

I have a passer Runner on my team:
https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=8834713

Since you have so much time to write on this thread, what about playing more in the Box?
I never see you there.
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