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Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2019 - 22:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Rigolgm wrote:
Surprised people allow that.


So your solution is what? randomly retire an Ogre on all coaches teams that have 6? Sounds like a good way to get a lot of coaches upset. They are still Ogres and not going to be very good - one more is just another bone-head waiting to happen imo Very Happy
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2019 - 01:28
FUMBBL Staff
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It's a standard grandfathering policy for FUMBBL. Sometimes old teams get a stick (double juggernaut is a recent example), sometimes old teams get a carrot (like this particular change).

It's simply easier to not mess with people's teams beyond what's necessary.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2019 - 10:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Rigolgm wrote:


I think my league would consider it bad sportsmanship if I added a Runt Punter to my 6-ogre team.


If you're playing ogres you already have a huge sportsmanship bonus. No one should complain.

For comparison, buying a seventh ogre is much better sportsmanshipwise than buying a second wardancer.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2019 - 11:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:

If you're playing ogres you already have a huge sportsmanship bonus. No one should complain.

Well, apart from another coach playing Ogres with a regular roster, which has the same sportsmanship bonus as you but fewer Ogres.
Razz
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2019 - 13:46 Reply with quote Back to top

fair enough, I will apologize to any ogre coaches that missed this opportunity

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Rigolgm



Joined: Sep 14, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2019 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Rbthma wrote:
Rigolgm wrote:
Surprised people allow that.


So your solution is what? randomly retire an Ogre on all coaches teams that have 6? Sounds like a good way to get a lot of coaches upset. They are still Ogres and not going to be very good - one more is just another bone-head waiting to happen imo Very Happy


I just swapped one ogre for a runt punter (at random, otherwise I'd have been too tempted to make it my AG3 ogre!) and paid the 10k extra from my treasury.

Ours is a simple short-ish league so it was easily done. I guess I can appreciate how it's harder to just randomly do that to a player in a very well-developed FUMBBL team. So yeah - thinking about it, I can see where you're coming from.
Rigolgm



Joined: Sep 14, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2019 - 14:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:
If you're playing ogres you already have a huge sportsmanship bonus. No one should complain.


Definitely Smile

There's a big tendency for our local players to run potent teams. Orcs, Undead, Lizardmen, Elves, Dwarfs etc.

So I'm really happy with the new Ogre rules, as I can relax a bit more when playing those matchups. The likelihood of having inducements gives an extra chance to cope against some of the Ogres' biggest nemeses, such as by possibly turning a Gutter Runner into a toad etc.
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2019 - 18:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Rigolgm wrote:
Rbthma wrote:
Rigolgm wrote:
Surprised people allow that.


So your solution is what? randomly retire an Ogre on all coaches teams that have 6? Sounds like a good way to get a lot of coaches upset. They are still Ogres and not going to be very good - one more is just another bone-head waiting to happen imo Very Happy


I just swapped one ogre for a runt punter (at random, otherwise I'd have been too tempted to make it my AG3 ogre!) and paid the 10k extra from my treasury.

Ours is a simple short-ish league so it was easily done. I guess I can appreciate how it's harder to just randomly do that to a player in a very well-developed FUMBBL team. So yeah - thinking about it, I can see where you're coming from.


Heh, apparently we were both thinking of our local leagues (FUMBBL being mine). I've seen the issues that cropped up when Piling On was removed from the rules a while ago and was switched for Juggernaut - some stuff there's no pleasing everyone.

A TT league, certainly you could find a solution much easier through discussion Smile
Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2019 - 19:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Even 11 ogres team. Wink

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Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2019 - 19:59 Reply with quote Back to top

And if im not wrong a 11 ogre team could have a 12th now ? By buying the punter ? Wink

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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2019 - 20:25 Reply with quote Back to top

to be honest it's a nice idea but you would still have 150k sitting on the bench

if you have a team with 11 ogres you'll buy the punter after one of your original 11 dies

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Rigolgm



Joined: Sep 14, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 21, 2019 - 09:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Rbthma wrote:
I've seen the issues that cropped up when Piling On was removed from the rules a while ago and was switched for Juggernaut - some stuff there's no pleasing everyone.


Yeah I was having a whole different debate on Facebook with someone yesterday about Piling On. I was just asking if the Team Re-roll that it requires means no other Team Re-roll can be used in the same turn (which is the case, apparently).

However people quickly came back with it NOT needing a Team Re-roll now. It turns out that the new Coach's Handbook says "Alternative Skill" then gives a version of Piling On that is just like it was years ago, requiring no Team Re-roll.

So it looks like Piling On is an Optional skill only (as per Death Zone one) and requires a Team Re-roll nowadays ... but doesn't require it if you're using the Coach's Handbook 'Alternative' version. All a bit baffling to me, but heyho.

I think Games Workshop fiddled a bit with Juggernaut and Stand Firm years ago, but for most skills they seem able to make their mind up. Part of me feels like Piling On is only so divisive because players of teams that are already strong enough (Chaos, Dwarfs, Norse etc) shout so loudly about wanting the glorious extra boost of an always available Piling On.

I can see Piling On making little difference in a tournament, where teams don't develop and only have one extra skill (maximum) on each player. In leagues it's different. I've heard that long leagues using the old no-reroll Piling On have very high numbers of winning teams using the Claw, Mighty Blow, Piling On combo.

And they were arguing that the nerfing of Piling On (making it require a Team Re-roll) hit Ogres etc hard, but I'm not sure I'd use Piling On much in an Ogre team anyway - even if it was the old style one that didn't use a Re-roll. Ogres are usually best on their feet because you need their tackle zones, especially around so many Titchy gnoblars.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 21, 2019 - 12:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Rigolgm wrote:

Yeah I was having a whole different debate on Facebook with someone yesterday about Piling On. I was just asking if the Team Re-roll that it requires means no other Team Re-roll can be used in the same turn (which is the case, apparently).

Exactly, only 1 Team Re-roll per turn can be used.
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 21, 2019 - 13:47
FUMBBL Staff
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Debates like that are created because the people who write the rules aren’t experienced enough to have clear terminology.

As an example, the rules state that you can’t reroll a “distance” dice roll. With the new kick team-mate skill, the writers state that you roll 1-2 D6 and then move the kicked player that far. This creates a point of discussion because it’s not explicitly stated to be a distance roll, and you could argue that it’s allowed to reroll that.

The rules should have a set of keywords that are clearly defined and used in all contexts to make things more clear, and experienced game designers will introduce and maintain that set of keywords.

It’s the same thing with piling on; it doesn’t say you use the reroll and instead uses terminology that is inconsistent and thus opens up for interpretation and discussion.

Many other games, even GW ones, have keyword based rules and it’s unfortunate that BB doesn’t to the same extent.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 21, 2019 - 14:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Rigolgm wrote:

However people quickly came back with it NOT needing a Team Re-roll now. It turns out that the new Coach's Handbook says "Alternative Skill" then gives a version of Piling On that is just like it was years ago, requiring no Team Re-roll.

So it looks like Piling On is an Optional skill only (as per Death Zone one) and requires a Team Re-roll nowadays ... but doesn't require it if you're using the Coach's Handbook 'Alternative' version. All a bit baffling to me, but heyho.


I thought that it was no longer optional. Otherwise, I would not have expected it to be enabled in Ranked & Box.
But I really can't arsed to keep up with incessant rule changes. This is where people start losing interest in the game.

"Alternative" doesn't sound very baffling to me. Use it or don't.

Rigolgm wrote:

I think Games Workshop fiddled a bit with Juggernaut and Stand Firm years ago, but for most skills they seem able to make their mind up. Part of me feels like Piling On is only so divisive because players of teams that are already strong enough (Chaos, Dwarfs, Norse etc) shout so loudly about wanting the glorious extra boost of an always available Piling On.


Piling on is so divisive because CRP CPOMB was a disaster in the massive on-line open divisions.

The same set of BB rules is never going to work well in all environments. People still insist on using the "official rules" so they have to be "officially told" that the can use an alternative.

Y'all should know my catch phrase by now. Twisted Evil

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