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Thelovelyfool



Joined: Dec 19, 2019

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 14:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Folks, The Lovely Fool here.

I've started to create custom teams for fun and because I like rules and game design / balancing.

I'd love if you'd want to have a look at my latest team: The Marienburg Mob
I'm mostly looking for advice on game balance and overall design, but every suggestion on fluff and coherence in the universe of BB is welcome!

Here is a document with the full breakdown of the team including the roster and explanations of my thought process and vision for the team: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BFHo2h825Ehr2dZA4d66IdnhkSU2kQ92/view?usp=sharing


And for those who just want the roster without context, here it is:

Bystander (Lineman, 0-16): 6/3/3/7 – Jump Up – Access to G skills – Cost 50k

Street Urchin (Stunty 0-2): 6/2/3/7 – Sneaky Git, Stunty, Dodge – Access to A skills – Cost 40k

Cutthroat (Striker, 0-2): 7/3/3/7 – Stab, Shadowing – Access to GA skills – Cost 80k

Mugger (Blitzer, 0-2) 7/3/3/8 – Block / Diving Tackle – Access to GS skills – Cost 110k

Sea Elf Cutpurse (Runner, 0-4) 8/2/4/7 – Dodge, Dump Off – Access to GAP skills – Cost 90k

Mob Ogre (Big Guy, 0-1) 6/5/2/8 – Bone-head, Loner, Grab, Thick Skull, Shadowing – Access to S skills – Cost 150k

Apothecary: Yes

Team Rerolls: 50k


Thanks for reading and for your (constructed?) feedback Smile
selfy_74



Joined: Sep 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 16:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Take out the sea elf cutpurse and I think you're on to something. Also give the urchin 'the right stuff' and the Ogre throw team-mate.

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Thelovelyfool



Joined: Dec 19, 2019

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 16:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the suggestions Smile If I may ask, why do you suggest these edits?

What don't you like with the Cutpurse? Do you think they're too strong? Not thematic? When I built this team, they were at the centre of it. They are the player made to be enabled by the rest of the team, akin to Gutters in a skaven team. I could see them using some tweaks, but straight-up taking them out wouldn't make sense in my mind.

Also, I took out the Throw Team-mate combo to reduce the possibilities and cost as I think it'd be non thematic and not synergistic with the team. Why do you think it should be re-implemented here?

I'd appreciate your thought process here Smile
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 17:12 Reply with quote Back to top

This honestly feels more like a skills showcase than an actual roster.

With specific players feeling more like "how can i use the the roster creation rules to create a better player than an existing crp one for the same cost", and others feeling more like jamming starting skills on in exchange for a stat reduction.

I also question how a street mob gets 50k team rerolls in the BB universe.


It's interesting, but the fluff reads like justification for the skills and whole-team synergy rather than the skills resulting from the fluff. It's all rather mechanical to me - you've got more positionals than even orcs and just about everything is loaded with extra skills.

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Thelovelyfool



Joined: Dec 19, 2019

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 17:53 Reply with quote Back to top

That's an interesting view. They might be overloaded, hence the request for feedback. So thanks for your insight.
I will seem a bit defensive below, but it's because I'd love you to develop on what makes you believe what you said. If you could read my points there and tell me where you disagree and why that'd really help me out. If you don't have time for this, it's fine Smile


There is no hard rule on team creation. I didn't mix/max them, please trust me. Jamming skills, I might plead guilty however.

So to answer your points.
The "Skill showcase" complex is indeed real. I like to design teams that make use of skills rarely used in base Blood Bowl. I find it refreshing, and it forces people to play differently. This is why I really like the Bretonnains from Cyanide: instead of having stat freaks, they found an identity by forcing skills on the players. And you may not believe me, but I started the team by imagining the characters and then looking at what skills would embody that idea. I didn't start from a gameplay perspective.
This team was not meant to have any stat freaks, maybe the AG4 need to be removed as suggested above? So their skills is what makes them unique. A bit like Elven union in some way.

I don't think players are all better than CRP ones, you might feel overwhelmed by the amout of skills and value them too much:
- The lineman is arguably worst than an amazon lino, better than a rat. Jump Up on av7 is not the best skill. If you've read my Nerfing avenues bit, you might have seen I was thinking of making them AG2 if they looked too good. But I feel AV7 with no defensive skill on a lineman is punishing enough. As they will get punched often, AV7 is really bad.
- The urchin is great I believe, indeed better than a goblin and well suited to the team. I agree he's strong. It's still a positional worse at punching than a lineman, so I don't think he'll break balance. Having the ability to foul at will doesn't mean you'll have the luxury to do so every turn.
- Let's compare the Cutthroat to the DElf Assassin, which I believe is fair? Quicker but AG3 instead of 4 for 10k less. I believe AG4 is stronger than MA7 and justify the price cut. The synergy between MA and Shadowing is great indeed, but being AG3 makes him less mobile and makes the possibility of a Leap stabber less realistic. I don't see an issue on these guys.
- The blitzers are simply human blitzer with a double skill for 20k. This is not the most synergistic with their role nor the more powerful skill, and I understand it might feel out of place. However, to me if feels like a fun twist on the blitzer concept. Maybe giving them wrestle instead of block to make them worse killers and better at sacking and slowing down targets could be more thematic? I don't know. However I agree with you, this one is a bit clunky. Would you have any suggestion to make it better?
- The contentious runners. GAP access on an AG4 MV8 player. Yep, it's strong, I know. But passing is always risky, and with so many options, you'll have to specialise them, which will make them even more valuable targets. The team doesn't have much strenght to support those guys, so I think they'd be balanced a bit like gutters, but slower. Pass access is good, but far from essential an nearly useless for half the game. Dump off is a luxury, and is mostly here for fluff because you really shouln't let people hit them, or they wont live long. Do you think they'd be better than Gutter Runners? I don't. I also don't think you can afford to field 4 at once on the pitch, which balances thing out. To echo what I said earlier, I agree they're overloaded. Maybe take out pass access, maybe reduce them to 2 as I suggested. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on this.
- The Ogre. This is a joke unit. A big guy without MB is not going to even up the field. And if grab was that good, people would take it sooner, right? I feel giving them grab at the cost of removal potential rewards positioning and manipulating the field more and encourages using the ogre as a pivot. I don't think shadowing makes him problematic either. He's still not that fast, and he's still easy to push away. I just had fun imagining the meter tall Ogre in a suit with a tiny hat following people around, surprisingly discreet.

And lastly, reroll cost. On this I don't see much to argue. Considering it's supposed to highlight team cohesion, there is two way of seeing a team of good-for-nothing. Either they're an uneducated bunch backstabbing each other, or they're more of a well oiled underground guild. I envisionned the later, but the former could work as well and be more Warhammeresque, so I don't have any opposition to upping the reroll cost to 60k.

Also, that's a total of 10 positionals (plus big guy), which is a lot, but still less than Orcs (to be fair, 4 goblins is a bit of a joke I'll admit) and same as Humans. On top of this, 6 of these positionals have less ST than lineman, and as such can be liabilities in the bashing game. This follows a trend of more "situational" positionals allowed in greater quantities (goblins, gutters, human catchers, Woodies catchers) in CRP teams.
selfy_74



Joined: Sep 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 18:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Thelovelyfool wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions Smile If I may ask, why do you suggest these edits?

What don't you like with the Cutpurse? Do you think they're too strong? Not thematic? When I built this team, they were at the centre of it. They are the player made to be enabled by the rest of the team, akin to Gutters in a skaven team. I could see them using some tweaks, but straight-up taking them out wouldn't make sense in my mind.

Also, I took out the Throw Team-mate combo to reduce the possibilities and cost as I think it'd be non thematic and not synergistic with the team. Why do you think it should be re-implemented here?

I'd appreciate your thought process here Smile


You've got everything going on there and I think it's too much. I don't like the sea elf from a fluff perspective and in game terms I feel that they make the team too good. Compare to Border Prince secret league team which I think gives a good comparison: https://fumbbl.com/help:BorderPrincesT

Maybe one would be feasible, but my preference would be to scrap that positional entirely.

Throw team mate is just an option should the sea elf go. Certainly not a deal breaker. Bare in mind that with a couple of stunties and 4 ag4 players you're going to have all sorts of shenanigans going on.

Edit: from a fluff point of view why would Sea Elf's, who are dripping in money from trading in Lustrian goods, want to play with a bunch of cut-throats and petty criminals?

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selfy_74



Joined: Sep 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 18:44 Reply with quote Back to top

My take on it would be something like this:


Street scum (Lineman, 0-16): 6/3/3/7 – Access to G skills – Cost 40k

Street Urchin (Stunty 0-2): 6/2/3/7 – Dirty Player, Stunty, Dodge – Access to A skills – Cost 40k

Cutthroat (Striker, 0-2): 7/3/3/7 – Stab, Shadowing, Dodge – Access to GA skills – Cost 90k

Mugger (Blitzer, 0-2) 7/3/3/8 – Wrestle / Diving Tackle – Access to GS skills – Cost 110k

Runner (0-2) 7/3/3/7 – Sure Hands, Jump-Up - Access to GA skills – Cost 80k

Ogre (Big Guy, 0-1) 5/5/2/9 – Bone-head, Loner, Thick Skull, MB, TTM – Access to S skills – Cost 140k

Apothecary: Yes

Team Rerolls: 70k

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 18:51 Reply with quote Back to top

In case it matters, I would consider Border Princes a team that is overcosted, so comparing to them isn't necessarily the best. They aren't overcosted by a lot, but when you consider that most core teams are undercosted, the comparison becomes more noticeable. Border Princes end up around Norse (which are not considered an overpowered race), except without the blanket Block to make up for it (so probably wouldn't even be as strong early on as Norse).

However, I agree that the Sea Elf fluff seems off. Looking at fluff for teams like Pirates of Sartosa, when elves have joined other teams, it's usually not a player that might be considered a star positional, but rather a renegade or exile or other 'cast off' player, that you would expect to have a relatively simple stat line.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 19:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not overvaluing anything, I think the skills showcase is clunky, and I HATE the brets roster you like for exactly the same reasons.

But when I say more positionals, I don't mean in terms of numbers on the team, I mean in terms of "positional that isn't a lino", which your team has more of than any CRP team. One of them is also less than the cost of a lino which allows for some undercutting at team creation by taking 2 of them then firing them for loners later. The GAP access on your gutter equivalent then allows leader on one (hey we get 4) for another minmaxing avenue, which in turn offsets their "cost". Grab on the big offsets the loss of MA by setting up multiple one turning avenues, and is actually very nice for setting up joker options in combination with jump up. You say the team would struggle at high tv... if i was using it, it would never see high tv, it's effective with inducements and a very slim roster.

But my issues aren't about ways in which i could break your roster, or use it very well, it's about the fact it's just far, far too busy.

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selfy_74



Joined: Sep 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 21:32 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
I'm not overvaluing anything, I think the skills showcase is clunky, and I HATE the brets roster you like for exactly the same reasons.

But when I say more positionals, I don't mean in terms of numbers on the team, I mean in terms of "positional that isn't a lino", which your team has more of than any CRP team. One of them is also less than the cost of a lino which allows for some undercutting at team creation by taking 2 of them then firing them for loners later. The GAP access on your gutter equivalent then allows leader on one (hey we get 4) for another minmaxing avenue, which in turn offsets their "cost". Grab on the big offsets the loss of MA by setting up multiple one turning avenues, and is actually very nice for setting up joker options in combination with jump up. You say the team would struggle at high tv... if i was using it, it would never see high tv, it's effective with inducements and a very slim roster.

But my issues aren't about ways in which I could break your roster, or use it very well, it's about the fact it's just far, far too busy.


This is why I was comparing to Border Princes. It wasn't on 'cost' under or over, it was more on number of positionals and the skills they start with.

My view would be that a 'human' team should not deviate too far from the original human team in terms of skills and positions. I see no reason to shoehorn in a gutter elf, and a human lineman that has been pressganged into the team should not start with Jump-Up.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 22:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Right, but my point about their cost is that reasonably, the border princes should start with more Something. It could be more skills, it could be more stats, it could be an entirely different positional, or it could just be slightly cheaper players, but they should start with more of something.
NickNutria



Joined: Jul 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2020 - 22:51 Reply with quote Back to top

I must admit I like the team: For me it's an unusual team, but that's part of the fun isn't it? It isn't too strong as the team has lot's of av7 and St2 guys. For me this team is a mixture between an elf team and a human team. Let's talk about the positions:

The street scum (linemen) has lower av and gains the jump up skill, so I think 50k is the right Price for him. Jump up makes him nuch more mobile than the ordinary linemen, with the Chance of a block if he's down. on the other Hand he's only av7 so he won't survive as Long. Still he should be more fun than the ordinary linemen.
NickNutria



Joined: Jul 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2020 - 00:32 Reply with quote Back to top

The Street Urchin is just a gobbo with sneaky git, not bad, but also not that Special.

The Cutthroat is an assasssin with more movement, but less agility than the DE Version.

The Mugger Looks like a human blitzer plus diving tackle. Quite expensive with 110 k, comparable to a Slann blitzer.

The most interesting Position is the sea elf cutpurse ma8, dodge, Dump off, I would compare him to a dark elf runner, not a gutter runner. A positional runner/thrower isn't that fast normally (ma7 for runner or ma6 for thrower would be normal), but also not that weak (st3 is normal). Four possible runners is also double amount of throwers/runners as common. That fast and many are normally catchers not throwers).
NickNutria



Joined: Jul 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2020 - 00:36 Reply with quote Back to top

The Mob Ogre is really fast for a big guy with interesting skills (Shadowing, grab). Hard to skill up (no mb), but really nice Options.
selfy_74



Joined: Sep 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2020 - 10:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Right, but my point about their cost is that reasonably, the border princes should start with more Something. It could be more skills, it could be more stats, it could be an entirely different positional, or it could just be slightly cheaper players, but they should start with more of something.


I don't agree. My opinion is that they are bang on. Enough difference to give them flavour, but not so much that they don't seem to be a 'human' team anymore.

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