31 coaches online • Server time: 11:19
Forum Chat
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post DOTP Season 4goto Post Skittles' Centu...goto Post Secret League Americ...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Poll
If defined, what should "good time" stand for?
Good time means good time. No definition required.
29%
 29%  [ 7 ]
Ready your stronger team within 24 hours after knowledge of the pairing
12%
 12%  [ 3 ]
Ready your stronger team within two days after knowledge of the pairing
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Ready your stronger team within three to five days after knowledge of the pairing
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Ready your stronger team 48 hours before the date fixed the latest
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Ready your stronger team 24 hours before the date fixed the latest
8%
 8%  [ 2 ]
Ready your stronger team 12 hours before the date fixed the latest
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Ready your stronger team 11-2 hours before the date fixed the latest
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Ready your stronger team 1 hour before the date fixed the latest
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Ready your stronger team x minutes before the date fixed the latest
12%
 12%  [ 3 ]
d'uh?
25%
 25%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 24


Dominik



Joined: Oct 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 04, 2020 - 22:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Based on this blog I'd like to ask for a clear definition of the rule where the higher rated team has to be readied at first.

Throweck came up in the blog with this rule, I wasn't able to find it:
Quote:
"In the event of teams scheduled to play in any Tournament both having post game sequences uncompleted, the team with the larger TV is expected to complete their sequence first and within good time for the opponent to complete theirs before the start of the match"


As many mention, "good time" can mean anything.

I am one of the coaches who enjoy thinking about strategies a long time before. When I am paired with a weaker team, I always ready my team within a few hours or the next 1-2 days and I always hope to receive that favor too. Unfortunately, almost every second time I see an unreadied team up to 1 minute right before the game was scheduled. Nothing has changed since I created this blog entry.

Could an authority hereby please define what "good time" means or write a clear rule and ideally let all active and future coaches know?


Last edited by Dominik on Apr 04, 2020 - 22:58; edited 1 time in total
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 04, 2020 - 22:43 Reply with quote Back to top

One can have a rules based system or a principles based system. The rules based system avoids ambiguity but tends to create many other problems. If people can be trusted to act responsibly the principles based system tends to be superior. There will always be some people who do not act responsibly. That does not necessarily mean that introducing a rule is the correct action as it means that many potentially have to pay for the few.

This has almost never happened to me so you must be either exceptionally unfortunate, being persecuted or have a bias in your recollection.

I would prefer to avoid the implementation of a rule. Unless you think your suffering in this outweighs the needs of all the others who are happy with it, would it be ok to leave it as a principle?
Dominik



Joined: Oct 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 04, 2020 - 22:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm ok with anything. It could be that authorities never considered the term "good time" being a problem for anyone, rethink about it and come to the conclusion that "good time" is a good definition. Then it is me who has to deal with it and can no longer try to, see the blog replies, hurry opponents to ready their team.

I encountered even coaches where I kindly asked opponents to ready their team and they refused to do so, answering that they will ready their team a few minutes before the game is scheduled to start. Maybe they were right, two minutes is enough to ready any team and decide for a strategy?
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 04, 2020 - 23:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, let me be clear about another part of this:
I think it's extremely likely that whoever came up with the wording of this rule thought quite carefully about it. It's well worded, well thought through and well considered like most of the things on the site.
Would it be ok to assume that they have thought about it and that 'good time' is their chosen wording?
If it were me that had come up with the ruling I would find it a little disappointing that people would ask me to confirm that I had thought about it. It would sort of imply that they thought I would not think something through. Now I agree that it's useful to reconsider things and I agree it's useful to give explanations so that people understand what is going on. But I think you understand that it's been worded as a principle and I think they can already see the evidence of whether this is something that needs addressing. So, if it were me, I would leave it. Which obviously doesn't make me right but sometimes I, perhaps mistakenly, feel I can help a bit having sat on the other side of this sort of thing in working contexts.
Dominik



Joined: Oct 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 04, 2020 - 23:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I fully understand your point. I believe that rules can be overwritten, renewed, preciced. In sports, a team eligible a championship has an exact deadline to complete their roster. In tournaments, the setup of your team has to be chosen before a deadline so that others (mostly journalists) can work with it.
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 04, 2020 - 23:20 Reply with quote Back to top

For the avoidance of doubt I think it's a great positive that you've raised awareness that it's a problem you're encountering. I don't want to come across as jumping on what you're contributing, just perhaps suggesting how to best look for resolution.
Dominik



Joined: Oct 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 04, 2020 - 23:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Why not add the line
Quote:
"or immediately if your opponent with the lower valued team asks you to complete and there is less than ?24/48 hours? left to the date fixed"
?
It adds a bit of work in every tourney game but it gives the freedom to both sites to not have a deadline in mind.
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 04, 2020 - 23:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I hope you can see why the example you draw of high stakes professional enterprises and low stakes amateur hobbies may have different optimal solutions.
I hope you can also see why your suggestion may well be less optimal than what already exists. I have thought about it for 20 seconds and can see that it is probably less good. This is what I would find a little hard work if I had come up with the rules. I don't want to spell it out as we'll get into a back and forth about it. Just try to think about the problem and see why it's probably not a good solution. If you can't see this, then it's possible that this sort of design isn't your strong suit and it's great that it's left to people who have thought about it as well as they seem to have. I'm not going to check back on this forum post any more now.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 04, 2020 - 23:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, I personally readied mine 48hrs before but had already informed my opponent i wouldn't be making any changes.

The actual rules of the game would be that you complete post-match immediately on finishing your match, so you should treat *any* time you get after this as a bonus really.

That said plenty of people aren't that invested in the games and aren't aware they're causing any bother by doing anything like this. In addition, plenty of people simply play their tourney game, start the pm exchange and log-off until the allotted time.

_________________
Image
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2020 - 00:32 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

The actual rules of the game would be that you complete post-match immediately on finishing your match, so you should treat *any* time you get after this as a bonus really.


Would that mean that the smaller team would ready first if they played first?

It is a fair point that "good time" will mean different things to different people.

Harad wrote:
This has almost never happened to me so you must be either exceptionally unfortunate, being persecuted or have a bias in your recollection.


Maybe the bigger the song and dance someone makes about needing days to prepare, the better strategy it is to deny them the time. Twisted Evil

You can still analyse the team as you see it and consider the most likely changes.

_________________
Image
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2020 - 00:46 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

Would that mean that the smaller team would ready first if they played first?


By the rules, yes.

The rules as written are often ignored in leagues such as they are here online, it simply works out better for all.

_________________
Image
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2020 - 00:50
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

It's been a year, and no one else has brought it up as a problem.

Now, the question is valid, but you must realize that it's a very minimal issue overall. Writing hard rules about things means there needs to be consequences, there needs to be tracking and it would need policing.

Mind you, I have a policy of delegating specifics about major tournaments to the acting tournament organizer for the site and will continue to do so for this particular topic.

That being said, there are a few other ways to "solve" this particular dilemma, which would be equally valid as options to your suggested way.

Purchasing players is part of the post-match sequence by the rules, and should be completed in connection to the previous match. Following this precisely would have pretty bad consequences, since players would be encouraged to delay their games to the last second of each round to gain more information. This would lead to more problems with scheduling and have a chance to effectively ruin the overall tournament schedule.

Another consideration is that you're not necessarily entitled to know what the opponent's team is prior to sitting down at the table for your next match, which would be after *both* of you have blindly completed your post-match sequence. This way, the opponent's team would only be revealed to you when you actually join the game (or after post-match has been completed for both of your teams). This approach would involve me spending quite a lot of time to develop support for this method, which given the size of the "problem" isn't reasonable. I'd rather spend my time developing other, more universally useful things.

Bottom line here is that I certainly won't push for an official hard line in the sand for when to ready things, but would also not veto a written policy should the acting official tournament organizer want to do so. The current official tournament rules are linked on each official tournament page (or at least they should be).
Dominik



Joined: Oct 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2020 - 22:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Thank you for your explanation. Given the current rules and assumed the situation that the opponent did not ready his team a few minutes before the date fixed and or I joined FUMBBL on time for the date fixed but the opponent had readied his team on the same day the game is scheduled, how many minutes I am allowed to take for post match sequence in such an unpleasant situation? Sometimes it is a no brainer and its done in one minute, sometimes I take two days and use the time to evaluate the options.

I've had a few encounters where the opponent readied his team just before the game started and expected me to join the game with no delay. That is something I am not enjoying very much.
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic